Rose Hybridizers Association Forum

by **Plazbo** » Tue Nov 12, 2019 4:44 pm

OP seedling from Baby Faurax. Yellow base and reverse.

The only yellows nearby were Sunny Knock Out and Sweet Spot Calypso, Foetida, Golden Cheronese...likely pollen from further away as none of those seem appropiate at this point.

by **Jwindha** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 11:25 pm

philip_la wrote: ↑
Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:28 pm
Is the last one also thornless? (Dunno why, but I would have expected leaflets a tad more lanceolate. The roundness of Wich came through, while none of the glossiness did, it appears.)

It is not thornless, just young. And you are correct, typically the F1 palustris hybrids have fairly lanceolate leaves, but this one has taken after its grandfather, for now. The mature foliage will probably be more narrow.

-Jonathan

by **philip_la** » Wed Oct 02, 2019 2:28 pm

I've been somewhat AWOL for a bit, and have missed a few neat posts. Jonathan, those are some pretty cool seedlings from Palustris. I particularly like the R. fedt. foliage, as well as that of the first R. rox. cross, and will be curious as to what those will offer moving forward.

Is the last one also thornless? (Dunno why, but I would have expected leaflets a tad more lanceolate. The roundness of Wich came through, while none of the glossiness did, it appears.)

Kim, I still have a couple of germinations from your crosses that, despite having short-lived and somewhat underwhelming blooms, I may have to find a little space to see what they do in the ground -- In view of the lousy performance of *all* of my other seedlings, I think pot culture isn't a very fair evaluation for roses in this climate. I'll have to shoe-horn them into some pretty tight spaces, but I'm assuming most of the seedlings will be culled within a year after being in-ground evaluated. I wonder, however, if other folks do this and have concerns about rose-replant disease?

The L56-Min seedlings seem to be quite resilient. (I have a couple others still too, but don't recall parentage offhand.)

Joe, as usual, I envy you your seedlings, and your ability to evaluate them in your setting. Very nice plants! I hope you can get repeaters in the next round from your carolina/virginiana lines. They look quite attractive.

by **roseseek** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:21 pm

You're welcome!

by **Jwindha** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 4:14 pm

roseseek wrote: ↑
Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:47 pm
Wow! Congratulations! Those are some real results there! And, they're so pretty!

Thank you!

by **roseseek** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:47 pm

Wow! Congratulations! Those are some real results there! And, they're so pretty!

by **Jwindha** » Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:13 pm

These haven't bloomed yet, but I'm excited to be making progress with palustris.

-Jonathan

by **roseseek** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:33 pm

Probably nothing most here would find interesting or be able to grow, but this is [(R. Brunonii X R. Gigantea) X Mlle Cecile Brunner) X [Reve d'Or X ((Echo X R. Gigantea) X Marie Van Houte)]. That translates to Nessie X Faith Whittlesey. It's two years old in a two gallon can. The foliage is good, it repeats and the scent is strong and sweet.

This is a sibling that appears to be taller, more upright, also with nice foliage, great scent and repeat.

'

And, a fun one. The larger pink bloom on the right is L56Min#2, Jim Sproul's L56-1 X R. Minutifolia. The smaller, lighter pink bloom on the left is L56Min#2 X Tom Thumb. The large pink flower at the end is an L56Min#2 self.

by **Gismapper** » Fri Sep 06, 2019 9:14 pm

Karl K wrote: ↑
Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:44 pm
Ploidy can be a bit of a challenge when you're just starting out. It's bad enough when two diploids give sterile (mostly) hybrids because their chromosomes just don't line up properly. 'Max Graf', from R. wichuraiana and a Rugosa gives very little pollen. And the plants I've seen raised from it (aside from Kordesii) look like they could have been raised directly from Wichuraiana. One thing you will not get from 'Max Graf' pollen is an even mixture of Wichuraiana and Rugosa characters.

The same thing occurs in hybrids of Plum and Apricot. The F1 hybrids are very interesting, but not very fertile. Backcrossing to either parental type greatly improves the fertility, and allow at least a few traits to get transferred. For example, I've seen what looks like an apricot, but with red flesh.

A diploid rose has 14 chromosomes, and these line up as 7 pairs when it is time for pollen or ovum production. Throwing in a third set of 7 chromosomes is bound to gum up the works because these extras (at least part of them) get tangled up with the 7 pairs. As the cells divide, some end up with too many chromosomes, others with too few, and very few with balanced sets of 7, 14 or 21.

But sometimes it all works out. That's how we got Hybrid Teas from the diploid Teas and tetraploid HPs. The "sterile" triploids were not quite sterile. And the same thing happened with the Hybrid Polyanthas, raised from diploid Polys and tetraploid HTs. And Hybrid Musks.

It's all interesting, and perseverance pays off in the long run.
Karl

Hey Karl,

I'm not sure how i missed this reply from you, but thank you! Those are some of the practical implications of ploidy that I'm lacking.

Mike

by **macabreroses** » Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:41 pm

jbergeson wrote: ↑
Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:04 pm
More show and tell:

P42FIVI: Peters 42 (one of Peter Harris' rescues from the Morden Breeding station, a cross between a poly and L83) X FIVI3. A lush and vigorous plant that blooms for a very extended period.

1128: 1048 (a healthy and hardy orange semi-double) x FIVI3 (First Impression x R. virginiana)

Blue For You x (R. carolina x [Red Dawn x Suzanne]) - nice fragrance and vigor.

All of the above are non-repeating roses that show good vigor and (so far) health from their virginiana/carolina parentage.

I adore 1128! Such a cute yellow!

by **jbergeson** » Thu Aug 08, 2019 1:18 pm

Tom, I don't know what the species is. It is the rose that grows wild around here in NW MN. I collected pollen from some growing on the edge of our woods. Seems to rebloom after the mower goes through the ditch, maybe. I'm still surprised to get a rebloomer from it.

Karl, I love the idea of sorting pollen. Two uses come to mind: For roses with a lot of crap pollen grains and only a few good grains, it could be used to concentrate the more viable grains and increase the likelihood of hip set. For triploids, it would be fun in some cases to have pollen that was a higher percentage of 1x, the smaller but viable grains, in order to pollinate diploids such as rugosas and have less infertility in the seedlings. In either case you'd have to start with a large quantity of blossoms.

by **Karl K** » Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:44 am

jbergeson wrote: ↑
Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:35 pm
This spring I found a vial of pollen that had been frozen from last year and decided to look at it under a microscope. Voila, I saw some healthy-looking oval pollen grains.

This got me thinking about something I read long ago about microscopes. I thought it involved Leeuwenhoek, but it was actually Pasteur who looked at paratartaric acid crystals under a microscope. He saw that there were two types, differing slightly in structure. He then sorted them, one by one, until he had enough of each to study in solution. One type turned out to be tartaric acid. The other was the optical isomer.

W. H. Morse: Pollen Selection (1902)
"Pollen grains vary in size and vitality, though they may have been grown in the same stamen. In fact, I am selecting my pollen grains. Method used: A piece of unglazed paper is used, shaking the ripe pollen onto it and curving the paper, and at the same time elevating one end so that the pollen runs down onto a plate. On looking at the pollen with a lens we find that a certain amount of inferior grains are left on the paper, and by repeating the operation only the heaviest grains reach the plate. From experience I have found that these selected grains carry with them the general make-up of the plant bearing them, unless the vigor of the stigma overpowers the pollen life."

This is an interesting claim, but it may or may not be quite accurate. Can the "inferior grains" that get left on the paper really harm the cross? It is not impossible that they germinate sooner and get to the ovaries first.

Aside from this speculation, it might be useful to sort pollen from a triploid, getting rid of the definitely bad grains, and then sorting larger (diploid?) from smaller (monoploid?) so each could be used on appropriate parents.

Or maybe the whole sorting business just gets rid of the chaff, and eliminates the illusion that "plenty" of pollen has been used. More pollen is better than less, and two or three pollinations give more and better seeds.

by **tsilvers** » Tue Aug 06, 2019 10:16 am

All beautiful Joe! I especially like those last three. What is "the native rose" that is pollen parent of number 3 in the first post?

by **jbergeson** » Sun Aug 04, 2019 7:04 pm

More show and tell:

P42FIVI: Peters 42 (one of Peter Harris' rescues from the Morden Breeding station, a cross between a poly and L83) X FIVI3. A lush and vigorous plant that blooms for a very extended period.

1128: 1048 (a healthy and hardy orange semi-double) x FIVI3 (First Impression x R. virginiana)

Blue For You x (R. carolina x [Red Dawn x Suzanne]) - nice fragrance and vigor.

All of the above are non-repeating roses that show good vigor and (so far) health from their virginiana/carolina parentage.

by **jbergeson** » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:53 pm

Miscellaneous show and tell:

An Easy Elegance Calypso seedling blossom with interesting red stripes.

Double red seedling...probably something like Summer Sun x Cancan.

Prairie Joy x the native rose. Gets nasty blackspot, but amazingly hardy and reblooming.

by **jbergeson** » Sun Aug 04, 2019 6:35 pm

In regards to Karl's note about Max Graf:

I have a seedling that is Rugosa #3 x Grouse. (Note: although Rugosa #3 was the result of attempted chromosome doubling, I've always assumed it is a diploid from how it seems to work for breeding.)

This seedling is a mounded, spreading plant that reblooms (sparsely). Very thorny. Glossy foliage shows rugosa influence. Odd, small, single, dark pink blossoms. All in all it is what you'd expect from the cross. It sets no hips, and I've assumed it would have very little viable pollen as well.

This spring I found a vial of pollen that had been frozen from last year and decided to look at it under a microscope. Voila, I saw some healthy-looking oval pollen grains. I decided to use the pollen, putting it on the fertile triploid Miracle on the Hudson, and the hips appear to be swelling. So I'm excited to see what the results will be. Although my hybrid is nothing special in and of itself as a landscape plant, it's exciting to see what it may inject into a modern landscape rose.

by **Karl K** » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:44 pm

Ploidy can be a bit of a challenge when you're just starting out. It's bad enough when two diploids give sterile (mostly) hybrids because their chromosomes just don't line up properly. 'Max Graf', from R. wichuraiana and a Rugosa gives very little pollen. And the plants I've seen raised from it (aside from Kordesii) look like they could have been raised directly from Wichuraiana. One thing you will not get from 'Max Graf' pollen is an even mixture of Wichuraiana and Rugosa characters.

The same thing occurs in hybrids of Plum and Apricot. The F1 hybrids are very interesting, but not very fertile. Backcrossing to either parental type greatly improves the fertility, and allow at least a few traits to get transferred. For example, I've seen what looks like an apricot, but with red flesh.

A diploid rose has 14 chromosomes, and these line up as 7 pairs when it is time for pollen or ovum production. Throwing in a third set of 7 chromosomes is bound to gum up the works because these extras (at least part of them) get tangled up with the 7 pairs. As the cells divide, some end up with too many chromosomes, others with too few, and very few with balanced sets of 7, 14 or 21.

But sometimes it all works out. That's how we got Hybrid Teas from the diploid Teas and tetraploid HPs. The "sterile" triploids were not quite sterile. And the same thing happened with the Hybrid Polyanthas, raised from diploid Polys and tetraploid HTs. And Hybrid Musks.

It's all interesting, and perseverance pays off in the long run.
Karl

by **Gismapper** » Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:48 pm

Karl K wrote: ↑
Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:04 pm
In addition to its hardiness, perfume and reliable rebloom, 'Hansa' has color. According to Eugster & Märki-Fischer (1991), the pigment is almost pure peonin. Usually, this pigment appears clear pink or red with no tendency to "blue'". As such, it combines well with orange (pelargonidin) and yellow. Crossed with an orange Polyantha (Orange Mothersday, Gloria Mundi, etc.) could give a bright orange version of the Grootendorst Rugosa-Polyantha hybrids. Or, it could give similar colors when crossed 'Orangeade', 'Trumpeter' or other orange Floribunda.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/orangeade.html

Getting yellow into hybrid Rugosas is more of a problem. 'Agnes' (a rugosa x 'Persian Yellow') is soft amber with a delicious perfume (as I recall it from Kansas nearly 40 years ago). 'Topaz Jewel' (Golden Angel × Belle Poitevine) is nice. 'Agnes Emily Carman' is apparently extinct. It was was raised from a Rugosa x 'Harison's Yellow'. The color was said to be precisely that of 'General Jacqueminot'. Not yellow at all.
It wouldn't hurt a bit to give it another go, using the brightest yellow Floribunda, HT, or English rose available.
Karl

Thanks karl! Great info...definitely something to try...i enjoy a challenge. I have to confess, I'm having a bit of a hard time wrapping my mind around the concept of ploidy. I get it in general, but I'm lacking the working knowledge of how it plays out, exactly. But I'm sure it's covered somewhere in the vastness of the internet. It's just a matter of finding the time in my life. I was satisfied with the assumption that I'm working with 'Hansa' and possibly 'Rubra'. Both diploid. I'll take a deep dive into ploidy this fall/winter.

First i have to get my 'Hansa' feeling better. After that, yellow could be fun to play with.

by **jbergeson** » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:27 pm

Here is a seedling of a blush white single rugosa (Monroe Center Rugosa, a Henry Hudson OP I believe) x a blend of Miracle on the Hudson and Kiss Me pollen. I’m just assuming the pollen parent was MOTH.

It doesn’t set hips, but its pollen is gorgeous and uniform. That fact combined with the strong rugosa characteristics make me think it is a diploid. Most presumptive triploids that result from crossing rugosas with modern polyploidy have foliage that shows less rugosa influence.

So I’m wondering if this seedling might have any value in moving forward with rugosa and modern genes.

by **Plazbo** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 10:10 pm

There's also potentially golden touch (? aka Broadlands) which is a rugosa hybrid that apparently produces some fertile pollen. That may produce much more fertile children that can be breed amongst themeselves to see if the yellow can be strengthened.

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