Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

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Expand view Topic review: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Karl K » Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:37 pm

Karl K wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:02 pm
And isn't R. woodsii more tolerant of alkaline soil than R. blanda?
I checked again. Apparently R. woodsii ranges from acidic soils to somewhat alkaline, and damp to dry. I don't know whether there are especially alkaline-tolerant selections like there are in R. blanda.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1918.html

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Karl K » Sat Sep 14, 2019 2:25 pm

Looks like Rosa woodsii has a lot of geographical adaptation to share if one could collect an assortment. There's a lot more going on than just color variations and doubling.

New Phytol. 37: 72-81. 1938
PHYLOGENY AND POLYPLOIDY IN ROSA
EILEEN W. ERLANSON, D.Sc.
p. 75
The greatest geographical range of a rose in America is that of R. Woodsii Lindl., a simple diploid form which stretches from the coast of Alaska to Chihuahua, Mexico.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... y1938.html

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Plazbo » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:56 pm

jbergeson wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am
I'm hesitant to go down the rugosa pathway, mostly out of a prejudice born of iron chlorosis, poor blossom form, and delayed remontancy among rugosa seedlings. I know I should, but I don't know if I have the patience.
In theory, the delayed remontancy could be bred out without straying too far, it'd just take a lot of numbers and/or luck. There are references of various rugosa(ish) hybrids throwing juvenile bloomers (Belle Poitevine, Ann Endt, Therese Bugnet, Calocarpa, Will Alderman etc probably Sydney and Bonavista would be capable to). Try breed those with each other, cross fingers you get juvenile bloomers. If wanting to, you could discard any rose that doesn't bloom in 2 or 3 months to minimize space. If you get juvenile bloomers cross them with each other to determine the % of juvenile bloomers to see if it's a fixed trait or not.

Benefit after that step is being fairly certain any once bloomers are likely outcrosses, so only select juvenile bloomers from those once bloomers that also have the intended characteristics from the original cross. Sure it turns every introgression from a once bloomer into a 2 step process but once you've got the genes you're looking for into that juvenile blooming population....you're not having to wait years every step.

It's something I'm attempting this season but my access to some of those cultivars is non existent, there will be a lot of Calocarpa/Therese Bugnet/Ann Endt crossings made over the next few months. Even if only 1 juvenile bloomer turns up, I can hopefully cross it back to those three for increased odd's on breeding more and then work on introgressing traits into the resulting population.

The other sideshoot/plan of attack is Calocarpa, it's parentage being what it is, cross it with any dip juvenile bloomers (poly/tea/china/modern dip) select any juvenile blooming offspring with rugosa influence, see if those will accept rugosa pollen and then following that through to an F2 population.

I'd prefer to be crossing Calocarpa/Sydney/Bonavista though given the similar nature of their potential juvenile bloomers, but Bonavista and Sydney never came to Australia, but it's possibly an easier first step to get the initial population with juvenile bloom and then work in something (possibly R. woodsii and R. davurica) without iron chlorosis issues to fix that problem....but yes, patience would be required

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Karl K » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:42 am

jbergeson wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am
For the record, I don't have a lot of confidence in species labeling. There is so much variation within a species, potential intercrossing, and when a nursery gets involved mistakes happen and inaccuracies are compounded.
Gordon Rowley discussed this problem back in 1951.
"Sometimes it is even possible to suggest, on cytological grounds, the other parent of such aberrant individuals. Five Kew seedlings received as Rosa pendulina (tetraploid) turned out, surprisingly enough, to be all heptaploid, with somatic counts of 2n=49 (or very nearly so). Examination of the Kew "pendulinas" revealed one that was an octoploid under the name of R. balsamea, and next to it as its nearest neighbour a hexaploid, R. nutkana. Perhaps these were the parents of the mysterious heptaploids which, for all their odd ancestry, flower well and seem remarkably fertile."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/RowleySeeds1951.html

And I will add that from what I've read on the subject, I have never seen a genuine Rosa rugosa. The species is supposed to be once-blooming, sometimes with scattered repeat. The blooms should be borne singly, or sometimes in pairs. A dependably reblooming plant with clusters of flowers would not be recognized as R. rugosa by Thunberg if he happened across it in a garden. In fact, the Rugosas that we now have originated from seeds collected in a Japanese garden. No telling what the other parent(s) might have been.

Also, early sources agree that the leaves of R. rugosa (as R. ferox) should be tiny ... like R. wichuraiana. Leaflets just over 1 inch would be about right.

And somewhere in my notes I have Hurst's comment that American species seem to be more nearly true-breeding than European species. Maybe after the "species" were passed along by seed from garden to garden for a few decades.
Karl

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by jbergeson » Fri Sep 13, 2019 11:18 am

Some thoughts and questions:

I got my R. woodsii from Lawyer Nurseries. Since then I planted out an outdoor seedling bed and selected a few more seedlings for health and low thorns. I have one that is nearly thornless. It might be a cross with the apparently diploid R. acicularis (also from Lawyer) that were growing nearby.

For the record, I don't have a lot of confidence in species labeling. There is so much variation within a species, potential intercrossing, and when a nursery gets involved mistakes happen and inaccuracies are compounded.

I have started calling the plant that I got labeled "R. davidii" R. davurica because it seems to make sense based on it's characteristics. I have noticed it's similarity to my R. woodsii and R. acicularis in that they all have thin, wiry stems, upright growth and are hardy to the very tips. It has a lovely hip display right now and seems healthier than my R. woodsii's.

Has anyone succeeded in recovering rebloom from Metis? I'm wondering if Therese Bugnet could have contributed reblooming genes that could be recovered in a cross with a rebloomer. I have hips on Metis from Catherine Guelda pollen this year, so if I get enough germinations maybe I'll see if there are any rebloomers. Also some hips set on Pretty Polly Pink from Metis pollen. Fingers crossed for germination, as I've had poor results with polyantha seed in the past.

I haven't figured out where to go with R. woodsii and R. davurica. I would like to incorporate their extreme hardiness with increased blossom life and rebloom. I'm hesitant to go down the rugosa pathway, mostly out of a prejudice born of iron chlorosis, poor blossom form, and delayed remontancy among rugosa seedlings. I know I should, but I don't know if I have the patience. So I think I'll try pollinating Pretty Polly Pink with the R. woodsii next season, as I think I've cracked the code for getting polyanthas to set seed with diverse pollen.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Plazbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 6:54 pm

It was just something that stood out while i was looking due to various people saying they are the same. The difference may disappear as the plants get larger but at this roughly inch height theres an obvious foliage colour difference.

If blanda is very opppsed to alkalinity it may be the main contributor to death, while they are potted in acid potting mix, water here is alkaline. That or it could just be the very variable weather (everything is outside) with light frosts to 80+ happening on any given day during late winter/early spring. They wont all die, some are doing much better than others, so its not a problem...just the first wave of natural culling for my environment. Amusingly rugosa seedlings seem to have a less than 1% morality rate, amusing in the sense that you actively need to hunt down rugosa here but in general seem to be the least care neccessary option.

I also have davurica seedlings (along with any other dip cin type i had access too) so may have insights on their breeding in several years

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Karl K » Thu Sep 12, 2019 1:02 pm

Plazbo wrote:
Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:34 am
Just a random observation from seedlings grown from Sheffield seeds. It's easy to distinguish which is which without seeing the label, woodsii seedlings have much bluer foliage where blanda are mid green.

Blanda seedlings also seem more prone to dying....which may or may not explain why there doesn't seem to be a blanda plant in this country.
This is interesting information.

I have seen neither of these species, so all I know is what I've read. For example, according to Erlanson, R. woodsii averages around 65 stamens, whereas R. blanda averages almost double (115). And I gather that R. woodsii likely receives less rainfall in a year than its Eastern cousin. These two species seem to have been separate in the distant past, but have partly merged as their ranges came to overlap. And isn't R. woodsii more tolerant of alkaline soil than R. blanda?
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/species.htm

Boulanger (1937) had difficulty finding any genuine differences between R. blanda and R. cinnamomea.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... a1937.html

I imagine that other members (e.g., R. davurica) of this widespread species (or species complex) would behave similarly in breeding, while each might contribute other useful differences in adaptation.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Plazbo » Thu Sep 12, 2019 12:34 am

Just a random observation from seedlings grown from Sheffield seeds. It's easy to distinguish which is which without seeing the label, woodsii seedlings have much bluer foliage where blanda are mid green.

Blanda seedlings also seem more prone to dying....which may or may not explain why there doesn't seem to be a blanda plant in this country.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Paul G Olsen » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:16 am

It's astonishing that apparently little work has been done using 'Double Carlos Red' ('Albertan' x 'Carlos Red') in a breeding program. It's a remarkable development by Robert Erskine, who first crossed 'Athabasca' with Rosa woodsii and then crossed a selection with 'Carlos Red' (Rosa woodsii). The flowers are semi-double pink and about 5 cm. in diameter. If 'Athabasca' is pure Rosa woodsii, which it likely is, then this cultivar is 100% Rosa woodsii. The shrub, of course, is super hardy.

I recall using 'Hansa' with it several years ago, but for whatever reason I never got any selections. But it should be used with Rugosas to inject cold hardiness. Especially 'Schneezwerg' and 'Aylsham', which aren't pure Rugosa and so therefore might produce some interesting shrub forms.

Wouldn't it be interesting to also cross it with Rosa multiflora and R. wichurana?

I'm not aware this cultivar is located in the States. If not, it should be.

Brentwood Bay Nurseries, located on Vancouver Island, has several plants. They were propagated from softwood cuttings I sent to them from the shrub located at the St. Albert Botanic Park rose garden, which is near Edmonton, Alberta.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by johannes p » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:48 pm

Yes I am going the way of the triploid but I am using Adelaide Hoodless instead. Cuthbert Grant just is not hardy for me here.
I really like Showy Pavement but it fails on not being pure white. That is why I use White Pavement.

I am getting very excited about the multiflora crosses they seem to be taking. It appears that the problem with the polyanthas is not the multiflora but the chinensis parent. I spent many wasted days crossing Sanguinea with no results or I got 4seeds with Old Blush. But when I first time I smelled a multiflora I knew I was going to develope a line with this scent.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by pgeurts » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:38 am

Wow, that’s a lot of hips for just two seedlings. But you don’t know what you’re going to get with such wide crosses.

The first wide cross I made (Marie Pavie x R.blanda) I only had 9 seedlings and only 4 were definitely from the cross. Two of those had compatibilty issues with really weird leaves and growth so they were culled. The other two didn’t have growth issues but one was clearly sterile so that left just one, the one I still have.

I have tried several crosses similar to the one you made with my (Showy Pavement x R.blanda). In 2012 I put a mix of poly pollen on it and started out with 16 seedlings but by the time I planted them outside they were down to 5 because the rest died. I have three left but only 1 is for sure from the cross, the other two I’m not as sure. The first one bloomed this year but there were only one flower per stem and it hasn’t repeat. Now it’s getting black spot and losing leaves, but it has better hardiness than the poly parents. Last year I put (Marie Pavie x Robin Hood) pollen on (SPxRb) and I got lots of seeds and seedlings. So many of the seedlings died by the time I planted them out that there were only 6 left. Now those have gotten powdery mildew so bad that I’ll probably cull them all. So there won’t be any seedlings left from the 205 seeds I started with.

Also last year I also made a (SPxRb) x Cuthbert Grant cross and those are doing well. So well that I used three other triploid pollens on (SPxRb) this year, two have taken and one did not. So if you have any triploids that you can use that might be a better option.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by johannes p » Thu Jul 24, 2014 6:37 pm

I have made a slightly close cross to the one rugosa X (polyanthas x Rosa blanda) but reversed the order I crossed
(Fru Dagmar Hastrop X R. blanda) x Mothersday. Over a two year period I got 2 seedlings to survive one rebloomed unfortunately they got tall 2 m and the flowers were muddy, 6-7 petaled,the size of a penny and produced very sparingly. The worst was that they would not set hips and there was no anthers. johannes. I guess that just because i got seeds did not guarantee quality. I think that I may have pollenated and collected 200-300 hips.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by pgeurts » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:21 pm

Will do Don.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Don » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:42 pm

>>I have other plants....I would put the Magseed pollen on

We're in the doldrums now but if we get a fall flush I'll grab all the Magseed pollen I can and spread it around - it might not be much as the plant is still small. Remind me sometime after Thanksgiving which is when I generally head indoors and prepare to hibernate.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Paul G Olsen » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:37 pm

A few things about Rosa woodsii.

1. Rosa woodsii is quite tolerant of shade. It is often found growing in poplar bluffs on the Canadian Prairies, for example.

2. It is often stated that Rosa woodsii and Rosa acicularis hybridize with each other. Yes, there is some overlap in bloom. But generally speaking this doesn't happen readily, because the flowers self-pollinate easily. And there has to be very favourable conditions for seedlings to develop. For example, populations of both species growing near each other where the soil is exposed. In all my years of botanzing these two species on the Canadian Prairies (including its boreal forests) and in NW Ontario, I've never encountered small seedlings of either species.

3. It should be remembered that 'Therese Bugnet', one of the greatest shrub roses ever developed for a cold climate (Zone 2), likely has Rosa woodsii in its pedigree, rather than Rosa acicularis as commonly stated. Georges Bugnet, the developer of this rose, didn't know the native species growing in Alberta that well, and so he was likely mistaken about the identity of the native rose he used in his breeding program to develop this cultivar. If Rosa woodsii had been stated in the pedigree of this rose, perhaps it would have encouraged more development of roses using this species. It's very good to see the work Johannes and Paul has done with it.

4. Several years ago I discovered a very prickly rose growing in the Maple Creek, Saskatchewan cemetery (Maple Creek is located in the southwest part of the province, not too far from the Montana border). Initially, I thought because of its severe prickliness, it might have been a Rosa woodskii/R. arkansana hybrid. But later I determined it was a Rosa woodsii genotype. I think the severe prickliness of the shrub could be an adaptation to an ecosystem often having poor soils and extreme weather conditions.

5. On the western outskirts of Rainy River, this spring I discovered a Rosa woodsii genotype having quite large elongated hips. The flowers are a lighter pink than usual. It's possible this could be a Rosa woodsii/R. acicularis hybrid. I'm going to send it to David Z. for ploidy testing. I think it has potential to use with Rosa rugosa for a rose hip breeding program.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by pgeurts » Thu Jul 24, 2014 12:23 pm

To be fair I haven’t had much luck with either TB or SP as seed parents. After I did those crosses I was told that it is better to use TB as the pollen parent. And I haven’much luck using most Rugosas as the seed parent so it doesn't surprise me that Magseed didn't take on SP. If I were to do it again I have other plants (like Showy Pavement x R.blanda) I would put the Magseed pollen on besides those two.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by Don » Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:30 am

>> Magseed pollen did not take on either Therese Bugnet or Showy Pavement

That's what makes this sport interesting.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by pgeurts » Thu Jul 24, 2014 9:39 am

Just a heads up, Magseed pollen did not take on either Therese Bugnet or Showy Pavement when I tried it several years ago.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by pgeurts » Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:35 am

Betsy,
My guess is that it probably is R.blanda since it is only prickly at the base of the stems. This is a common trait for R.blanda. The leaves in the picture look a little more pointed than the typical R.blanda around here where the end of the leaves tend to be more rounded. R.blanda doesn’t usually get 7’ tall in the wild but I had some that grew that tall or more after I moved them into my yard. R.blanda can sucker profusely, but that can differ in different individual plants. My thornless R.blanda doesn’t sucker as much as other R.blanda I’ve had.

Johannes,
I used four different pollens on Metis this year. It looks like some of the pollinations have taken on three of the four pollens whereas the forth have all aborted. I have hips from Schneezwerg, Catherine Guelda and one of my third year seedlings ((Showy Pavement x R.blanda) x (Marie Pavie x R.blanda)). I’ve also been putting Metis pollen on the third year seedling, but it’s still too early to tell if those have taken. I wanted to put pollen from a (Marie Pavie x Robin Hood) plant I have because it also has small shiny leaves, but it hadn’t started to bloom by the time Metis was finished blooming.

Re: Use of Rosa blanda/woodsii in breeding

by bvanderhoek » Thu Jul 24, 2014 1:38 am

Thanks, Don! It was sent own-root from a nursery that (I found out later) was legendary for mislabelling. It was supposed to be R. acicularis 'Aurora' but it is not. My guess that it might be Blanda is based on the fact that it's diploid (thanks, David Z.!) and the letter B comes after the letter A in the alphabet. If the nursery had their species lined up in alphabetical order, therefore, blanda would come after acicularis and it might have been mixed up that way. I don't know whether it would grow shorter in full sun, but seems to do fine in partial shade. Very healthy! I am always impressed by any rose that can grow tall without winter injury here. I'd be glad to try some of the pollen you recommend--will try to remember to remind you. ;^)

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