All A'Twitter x Yatkan

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Expand view Topic review: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:49 am

It's something that I'm doing myself. Even though the eventual plan is to be mostly diploid there's a lot of traits from higher ploidies that I'm hoping to move down to diploid which are often attached to once bloomers or older classes without juvenile bloom. Making triploids that are once blooming (and potentially sterile without being able to determine for years) is a space commitment that I don't have the luxury of. So need to maintain the traits I'm looking for and acquire juvenile blooming, maintaining the traits for the most part requires not moving too far away from the source too quickly as the genes involved seem to generally be quantitative in behaviour....so a lot of sib/selfing F1 is stacking those two goals for the tiny fraction of juvenile bloom and potentially more of the once bloomers other traits than if crossing with a second modern.

The more fun one I'm working on and has unknown (but likely far worse) odds is Rubiginosa x Modern (thornless, because why not). Based on the results of someone with Canina X Spinosissima and the F1 being the expected mostly canina like in appearance but the F2 being an array of ploidies as the meiosis broke down. In theory juvenile (tetra or dip) rebloomer could be possible in the F2 without diluting the foliage scent genes too much, just may take something crazy like a million seedlings to find (hurray for 25+ seeds a hip...)....impossible odds here I come. Have already seen some odd results from Lord Penzance selfs that look mostly spin (and have the spin die back, dead wood grossness) rather than rubiginosa so that's encouraging (to me).

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:59 pm

Good point, Plaz.

I'm trying some outdoor seed plots this year to plant larger quantities of OP seed from the aforementioned modern-species F1's, planning to scout for those 27 out of 1000.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:24 am

jbergeson wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:29 pm
If you're in zone 5 that should make your work easier, because the once-blooming seedlings in the first generation of a species-modern cross should be able to have enough live wood to bloom. Then you cross the best of them with another rebloomer and select for juvenile bloom in that F2 generation. In theory, about one in six of the (modern x species) x modern seedlings should bloom (assuming tetraploids). If working with a diploid species, it should be easier to recover rebloom but also the species' influence will be diluted more quickly.
The other option is sib/selfing the F1 for a 1 in 36 juvenile bloom in the F2 (compared to 1 in 6)

Sure the odds are low, you'll get only approx 27 out of 1000 so would need to harvest a lot of seed but you'd be able to cull very quickly for juvenile bloom so space shouldnt be a huge issue and you'd retain more of the species which is possibly a better breeder/bridge for whatever you're hoping to get from the species.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:29 pm

It is likely that your R. woodsii seed could benefit from a warm stratification period prior to the cold stratification.

If you're in zone 5 that should make your work easier, because the once-blooming seedlings in the first generation of a species-modern cross should be able to have enough live wood to bloom. Then you cross the best of them with another rebloomer and select for juvenile bloom in that F2 generation. In theory, about one in six of the (modern x species) x modern seedlings should bloom (assuming tetraploids). If working with a diploid species, it should be easier to recover rebloom but also the species' influence will be diluted more quickly.

To be realistic... modern x species cross made in 2020, F1's germinate spring 2021, F1's bloom in 2023 and the best are crossed with moderns immediately (in both directions to maximize chances of success). F2's germinate in 2024. About 1 in 6 of them bloom that spring (juvenile bloom is a reliable predictor of remontancy) and are your first reblooming seedlings with 25% species blood. Maybe your F1's could bloom in 2022 if you have a longer growing season.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:34 pm

Joe, thank you for the detailed information. I am looking for at least snow level cane hardiness in zone 5 and eventually zone 4, but that is at the point of attaining good repeat bloom along with beauty and fragrance. A lot will depend (I think) on generations required to reach good repeat bloom and how well cold hardiness can be maintained through those generations. Certainly snowline hardy in zone 3 seems like a great starting point for me in my goals, provided I can work for several generations without becoming much more tender.
Any thoughts on various avenues that could be used to try and accomplish that if it takes a couple more generations to gain the repeat?

By the way, I love that fragrance (thinking Gertude Jeckyl for example, along with many old roses), although I also love Tea rose and a myriad of combinations of scents.
thanks again!

Oh yes, I gathered seed from what I believe to be Rosa woodsi this fall when camping. I also got seed from a rose I found camping up in the North Cascades that was at pretty good elevation, not sure what it was, but figured it might be pretty hardy. Anyone experience with germinating seed from Rosa Woodsi?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:21 pm

Duane, I first must give the caveat that my R. virginiana and R. carolina came from Lawyer Nurseries, and look very similar to each other. My assumption is that all they're either one or the other, but I haven't gone to work to figure out which one it is. Therefore, when I talk about R. carolina or R. virginiana it can't be assumed that whatever clone you end up getting of one or the other will produce identical results.

The "deserved reputation" about which I was speaking was in reference to the difficulty of using R. carolina or R. virginiana as seed parents. They seem to be reluctant to accept pollen from roses that are not closely related, genetically. Furthermore, it is difficult to determine whether any resulting seedlings are successful crosses, as they all seem to closely resemble the species seed parent. I have obtained successful crosses onto carolina/virginiana using R. centifolia, Above & Beyond, Red Dawn x Suzanne, Suzanne, Robert Erskine's Aurora, and perhaps a few others. Doing so took a lot of effort and time, and confirms to me that R. carolina is best used as a pollen parent unless absolutely necessary.

However, I do believe that carolina/virginiana have a lot to offer cold climate breeders when used as pollen parents. Seedlings from modern x carolina crosses have a tendency of having enormous vigor, which is one of the characteristics we need when breeding modern die-back rebloomers. Too much vigor, in fact, but it is better to have too much than too little for those of us up north. While not as tip-hardy as R. woodsii or R. acicularis, for example, the carolina/virginiana species are still way hardier than modern die-back roses, and thus add hardiness while adding vigor. Additionally, their foliage characteristics combine very well with modern rose foliage. They seem to have excellent blackspot resistance and tolerance to cercospora. Mildew and rust can be an issue, but I've been working towards selecting healthier specimens to act as starting points.

Their tetraploid nature combines well with modern roses, but makes it difficult to regain rebloom until the third generation. After several years I am just now getting some seedlings that rebloom and have a significant portion of virginiana/carolina genetics.

I think the rose I pictured was actually BFY x [R. carolina x (Red Dawn x Suzanne)], but the BFY x CAROCENT has a similar old rose appearance. Yes, a really strong fragrance...kind of a rose-water fragrance that not everyone likes.

In terms of hardiness, that seedling represents what happens when crossing carolina/virginiana with tender modern roses. You get something that dies back to about a foot tall in this Zone 3 climate and is not able to bloom every year. We had excellent snow cover last winter, to which I attribute the fact that these BFY crosses were able to bloom this season.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:38 am

How cold hardy is the cross Blue for You x (carolina x centifolia)? That is a beautiful rose. You said it was fragrant?

Would you recommend R. Carolina, or does the deserved reputation cause you to recommend something else? What would that be?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:47 pm

[quote=mntlover post_id=70521 time=1572461888 user_id=2154]
Also interesting that you used centifolia. Could you expound on why that was your choice, as I've read a lot about sterility issues, and apparently that isn't the case with the pollen you used. Any thoughts?
[/quote]

It's been a while since I made that cross. I was just interested in combining species-type tetraploids, I think. It's been a while. I don't even have centifolia any more. I was putting anything and everything on R. carolina, which has a well-deserved reputation of being reluctant to accept foreign pollen. The resulting seedling was clearly a hybrid because it is double. Very fragrant. I used it quite a bit two or three years ago in a fit of enthusiasm, but haven't used it recently.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:53 pm

and thanks Rob. I wasn't surprised that new growth had some purple mixed in, but was not expecting older growth to. Nor was I expecting all of it to turn more purple in fall, especially the stems. Reminded me of Party Hardy like that. Which was a pollen on Mary Rose, but not on PAK. I was thinking of Therese Bugnet for the purple stems also. Do other cold hardy plants you have turn more purple stemmed in fall?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:51 pm

I forgot this Rugelda seedling. It has been really healthy this season, considering the surroundings. I asked about this one when it germinated because the leaves were yellow (almost gold) instead of green. It has survived and grown, although a very small bush that has not bloomed yet. Now the do not turn from gold to green, but pass through gold, bronze, copper, then turn green. If several branches are growing it can have all at the same time. This is all season on new growth, not fall color like my other seedlings. There is one other seedling like this from Rugelda that I kept, although it does not have as much coloring. Still waiting on flowers for both though, so who knows.

And thank you Plazbo for that info!

Duane
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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:50 pm

mntlover wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:58 pm
Also interesting that you used centifolia. Could you expound on why that was your choice, as I've read a lot about sterility issues, and apparently that isn't the case with the pollen you used. Any thoughts?
Thats more a mechanical failure in centifolia, in most the majority of sexual parts are converted to petals so theres not much pollen if any and what is there is trapped in many layers of petals so natural pollinators cant access it and it doesnt touch the stamens. There are or were sports of centifolia with lower petal counts that had typical fertility.

In warmer climates (india, pakistan) centifolia reportedly sets hips, the cause of that Im not sure of. Its likely fuss in what pollen it accepts and heat stresses can alter how blooms develop (like heat stress in Baby Faurax, Blue For You, Eyes For You result in smaller white to pink tinged blooms that never develop the purple colours). I seem to have a hip on crested moss with its child helga brauer (which also came from seed of crested moss).

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Rob Byrnes » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:20 pm

Nicely colored leaves Duane.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:58 pm

Love two avenues to possibly get Rugosa into modern!
Really love the bloom Blue For You x (R. Carolina x r. Centifolia)

I have wondered if coming up with another avenue would be good to try, basically recreating English Roses, but more cold hardy and preferably more disease resistant. That is what I will be evaluating this winter. I'm excited to see where this avenue leads you! Also interesting that you used centifolia. Could you expound on why that was your choice, as I've read a lot about sterility issues, and apparently that isn't the case with the pollen you used. Any thoughts?

I'll attach several photos of two seedlings I'm watching to see. Both were disease resistant, even with rust, mildew and blackspot on other plants in the border (although not all three on each plant on either side of them), so time will tell, but good so far. No blooms this season, although I had to prune back the longer branches to dig them up and put them in pots.

One is Princess Alexandra of Kent x William Baffin (I believe because only other pollen parent was Lady of Shallot)
other seedling is from Mary Rose. I believe pollen parent could be William Baffin also, as the seedlings are so similar.
Expecting pink flower, hopefully double to fully double and fragrant, but we'll see.

Other two seedlings I'm really interested in (no pics yet) are Hansa x English Rose and Therese Bugnet x Mary Rose. Only one from each that cross didn't have genetic issues, at least none that have surfaced yet. Disease resistant so far..

Duane
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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Rob Byrnes » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:25 am

Nice job Joe! I really like your 1128 for form and color. If you need a test garden for YWP I can make room. :-)

more carolina descendants

by jbergeson » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:57 pm

Blue for You x (R. carolina x (Red Dawn x Suzanne))

Strong fragrance, good vigor. Non-remontant. I used its pollen quite a bit to see if I could recover rebloom.

I have another seedling with similar blossoms which is Blue for You x (R. carolina x R. centifolia).
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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:43 pm

I'll turn this into a show and tell thread because Duane asked a leading question...

1128: 1048 x FIVI3. I liked the very double, pale yellow blossoms and shrubby habit of this rose. Seems healthy, vigorous, and hardy and has fun genetics. Non-remontant.

1048 is YWP (https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.216469) x blended pollen of Hazeldean and Pink Double Knock Out. I'm really baffled as to how 1048 ended up a reblooming, large, healthy, orange-yellow rose with a scent like that of Morden Sunrise. The seed parent YWP was pale yellow and not particularly healthy or hardy, if I remember correctly. Pink DKO could have given health, but would have been unlikely to confer hardiness or that Morden Sunrise type of color (not as big or gorgeous a blossom, but similar coloration and fragrance). So it makes me wonder if this was a freak occurrence of Hazeldean (which I think is in the parentage of Morden Sunrise) throwing a reblooming F1. 1048 just keeps trucking along, shrubby and healthy. It is a sparse bloomer, which precludes commercial release.

FIVI3 is First Impression x R. virginiana. It apparently experiences preferential pairing that makes it pass on nearly zero rebloomers in the first generation. However, that same preferential pairing means that its seedlings such as 1128, though non-remontant, will pass on 50% rebloomers in crosses with rebloomers, and 25% rebloomers when self-pollinated or crossed with other FIVI3 seedlings.

See captions...pics of both parents and 1128.
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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:05 pm

Hi Duane! Thanks for asking about my babies. I love to blab.

The pollen was successful in creating hips on Miracle on the Hudson, and Oso Easy Italian Ice, I believe. I've collected the hips, but haven't cracked them open yet to count the seeds or entered them in the computer. The one hip survived to color up but again I haven't cracked it open yet to see how many (if any) seeds are in it. It will be very interesting to see what characteristics this rose pass on, especially rebloom, but also if it can pass on any of it's health and generally sturdy appearance. It's not going to be a great source of hardiness, but should pass on decent hardiness equivalent to other reblooming survivors around here.

My remontant seedling of Belle Poitevine x Commander Gillette, which I call POITECOM, continues to be impressive in its health and vigor. It's about six feet tall and eight feet wide. Although not tip hardy at all it regrows quickly to these dimensions. It seems quite healthy, with glossy foliage more like Commander. It is hardier than Commander itself. It blooms continuously, if not heavily, and the blossoms have a great fragrance. I believe it to be nearly sterile for both hips and pollen, but not completely sterile in either direction. This year I tried pollinating many blossoms and got one hip from a controlled cross (two seeds). I also found 11 OP hips on the bush, for 16 seeds. I have found a hip or two in the past but have not gotten any germinations. My hope is for a selfed seedling that is tetraploid and fertile while retaining similar characteristics, and which could then be used as a source of health, hardiness, remontancy, and vigor when crossed with modern tetraploids.

I have a seedling of Monroe Center Rugosa (an OP seedling of Henry Hudson) x Miracle on the Hudson (MOTH), that appears to be diploid and is fertile in both directions. It seems to have combined rugosa and modern characteristics in a more graceful way than most crosses of that ilk, leaning towards rugosa characteristics. It remains to be seen how much hardiness it will get from its rugosa side. (picture attached)

Another mildly interesting seedling was Canadian Shield x R. nitida. I have quite a few R. nitida seedlings that germinated in the spring of 2018, with this being their second season in the ground. This was the only one to bloom this year. It had boring, single blossoms and, like the previous MOTH/rugosa seedling, appears to be diploid. Its few blossoms readily set hips. It was not remontant, as to be expected with R. nitida as a parent.

Both of those roses interest me because they appear to be fertile diploids resulting from crosses with modern triploids. My best path forward with them is crossing with polyanthas such as David Z's excellent new release Pretty Polly Pink.
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MCR x MOTH

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Mon Oct 28, 2019 1:22 pm

How did the crosses with this rose go? The one hip on it? The pollen on others?
It will be interesting to see if you can move forward using this as a link.
That is what I am trying to do; so far mainly Hansa, Therese Bugnet & Martin Frobisher (mainly because those are the ones I was already growing) Purchased Wasagaming lately, so a once bloomer like Yatkan.
Please update us on the progress of this one as it goes.
Also, any others you are really interested in like this one you are testing?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:34 am

Thanks, Rob! It's been a nice plant. Now in a pot so I have to try not to kill it.

David Mears, for now I'm thinking of crossing with moderns, trying to recover rebloom, and seeing what the results look like.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Rob Byrnes » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:23 am

Really nice Joe. I love the color.

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