All A'Twitter x Yatkan

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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:35 pm

I just mentioned Stanwell because I recalled that post above from Ivan to some extent (that he got hips and seedlings from it). I figured given it's one of the commonly "sterile"/doesn't set hips in similar manner to Crested Moss and Robusta (which have set hips for me this season) that it's trigger is probably not heat related.

What I didn't recall was that he had it next to a wild selection of the species something I may be able to test next year should my own root spinosissima decide to grow (it got to about a foot and decided to not do anything above the surface since, possible semi dormancy due to heat...stanwell also seems to dislike the heat, it's canes often die back and new ones appear when it's cooler).

I wish Doorenbos Selection was here, but like many things it's not. It may be useful in one of my goals, purple flowers with black hips...step by step, will get there eventually.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Karl K » Mon Dec 30, 2019 3:50 pm

Plazbo wrote:
Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:19 pm
I don't know if it's the heat wave or the excessive amounts of pollen (ie 2 or 3 times a day for 5 days...seemed easier than looking for pollen that may or may not be found) but I have hip set on Crested Moss that I got this year. A lot of them seem to be phantom pregrancies (ie I can't imagine seed being in the hips with how small they are) but others have hips as big of Gallica hips that I can't imagine not having seed in them. Will find out in the next few weeks though when they are ready to harvest.

Helga Brauer is another rose from Crested Moss as seed parent (and took the breeder something like 20 years of attempts...but he's in a slightly cooler zone) so Crested Moss is clearly not as sterile as thought but also not particularly willing either.
Ralph Moore made use of 'Crested Moss', but as pollen parent.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... OSSP2.html

I don't recall ever seeing a hip on 'Stanwell Perpetual' growing in Palo Alto. I thought I'd read about its low pollen viability, but couldn't find anything in my notes. That is one plant that might serve as barbed wire, if one had a need.

If I had lots of time and room, and a more suitable climate, I'd like to cross 'Doorenbos Selection' with the Portland Rose to raise a red-flowered companion for Stanwell. Or substitute "Portland from Glendora" for a more doubled version.

I'm glad I keep notes:
From: "ivanlouette2002" <ivan.roses@wanadoo.be>  
Date: Sun, February 22, 2004 4:07 am  
To: ChezVibert@yahoogroups.com  

Roses sterility isn't easy to prove !

Because sterility was discussed about FDY I want tell you two little histories from my rose garden.

The most interesting observation I did about that was with the Pimpinellifolia hybrid 'Stanwell Perpetual' (one of my preferred). For a long time after planting it in my rose garden it didn't produce any hips, but after planting close to it a wild semi-dwarf pimpinellifolia form from the "Péninsule de Quiberon", it has produced each year a lot of hips, however each one with only one to three achenes in it. These achenes are fertile and gave me some wonderfully perfumed varieties, as 'Paula Vapelle' which has a lot in common with the small wild pimpinellifolia above (its perfume is the same but strongly increased by the influence of 'Stanwell' ; at first time in cold days, it is close to Convallaria majalis, and when the sunny and warmer days come it moves to orange smell). 'Paula Vapelle'is also much more fertile than 'Stanwell Perpetual', and like most other ones in those 'Stanwell''s seedlings, after a big splash in May-June it produces flowers up to the first autumn frosts. In this case, the intervention of a botanical species already involved into the parentage of the variety was perhaps helpful.

On the other hand, my friend the late Louis Lens gave me a very strange plant he called "Bizarre". This plant is a seedling from one of his pots but with an unknown origin. The stems have a sculptural irregularly curved growth and the leaves are leathery, irregular and strong like those of some appletrees. The most special is that it produces bark up to the the pedicels and the flowers receptacles and up to the rhachis of the leaves. Its hips don't develop perhaps only because of a physiological problem, but its pollen has proved to be fertile (one friend tried it) and two natural seedling found in its area have inherited of the "bark" character (probably an hybrid with my variety 'Ma Basanée' and another one with 'Prosternation') In this case, the varieties which produced the seedlings were of the Synstylae section.

Like some appletrees, it seems that some roses varieties need a particular pollinator.

ivan

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Sat Dec 28, 2019 7:19 pm

I don't know if it's the heat wave or the excessive amounts of pollen (ie 2 or 3 times a day for 5 days...seemed easier than looking for pollen that may or may not be found) but I have hip set on Crested Moss that I got this year. A lot of them seem to be phantom pregrancies (ie I can't imagine seed being in the hips with how small they are) but others have hips as big of Gallica hips that I can't imagine not having seed in them. Will find out in the next few weeks though when they are ready to harvest.

Helga Brauer is another rose from Crested Moss as seed parent (and took the breeder something like 20 years of attempts...but he's in a slightly cooler zone) so Crested Moss is clearly not as sterile as thought but also not particularly willing either.

On a side note, also had hip set on Robusta this year (never previously). Stanwell Perpetual still refuses (and branches frequently die) it clearly has some issue with the environment.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Karl K » Sat Dec 28, 2019 2:00 pm

Plazbo wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:50 pm
In warmer climates (india, pakistan) centifolia reportedly sets hips, the cause of that Im not sure of. Its likely fuss in what pollen it accepts and heat stresses can alter how blooms develop ...
I remembered a comment that seems to be appropriate here.
Rowley (1960) wrote about triploid roses.
Hip set is undoubtedly affected by environment, especially the weather at the time of anthesis. Ideal conditions may stimulate a "sterile" individual to mature seeds. Thus although Cardinal de Richelieu has never set a hip outdoors in the eight years under observation at Bayfordbury, Sam McGredy tells me it will do so occasionally under glass.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... loids.html

Wulff (1959) also tackled this subject, and reported an odd example.
The ancestry of Schneeschirm, an ornamental rose, is not quite clear. It blooms twice a year. The first flowering period lasts from June to August. The second begins after a short interval, and ends with the first frosts.

It is a very remarkable fact that the flowers of both periods differ in their meiotic behavior; only those produced during the first period are able to produce hips and viable achenes. Their reduction division is characterized by the occurrence of only 0-3 trivalents, with pairing to 7 bivalents and 7 univalents or 1 trivalent, 6 bivalents and 6 univalents. This reduction division proceeds rather regularly. The univalents, splitting twice, are mostly taken up into the young tetrad nuclei. Chromosome elimination is low, and so viable pollen grains and egg cells will contain 14 chromosomes.

The offspring of about 60 plants were tetraploid, each seedling having 28 chromosomes in the root tips.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... ploid.html

And a bit further afield, I have another curiosity involving wheat. Lyubimova (1960) discussed environmentally induced variations in pollen viability and content. Fig. 5 is particularly instructive. She wrote,
We are justified in drawing a definite conclusion from the results obtained. In many hybrid forms the processes of micro- and macrosporogenesis are subject to considerable variations, depending on the conditions of the environment in which they take place. Changes of environmental conditions lead principally to modifications in pollen sterility of the hybrids. Under the same conditions no modifications in meiosis and fertility are observed in old species.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Lyubim ... _1960.html

It is not difficult to imagine a variety of hypotheses to explain sterility in an excessively double flower, but why would this sterility extend to semi-double and single flowered sports. Then again, I have a report involving petunias. The original double-flowered form was seed sterile and had to be reproduced by pollinating a normal form of the species. Myrtle Francis (1915) worked the strain and produced a beautiful and odd bunch of varieties. She got the seed-fertile doubles that she wanted, along with a single-flowered specimen that was completely sterile. I don't have a clue how that last one came about.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Franci ... unias.html

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:49 am

It's something that I'm doing myself. Even though the eventual plan is to be mostly diploid there's a lot of traits from higher ploidies that I'm hoping to move down to diploid which are often attached to once bloomers or older classes without juvenile bloom. Making triploids that are once blooming (and potentially sterile without being able to determine for years) is a space commitment that I don't have the luxury of. So need to maintain the traits I'm looking for and acquire juvenile blooming, maintaining the traits for the most part requires not moving too far away from the source too quickly as the genes involved seem to generally be quantitative in behaviour....so a lot of sib/selfing F1 is stacking those two goals for the tiny fraction of juvenile bloom and potentially more of the once bloomers other traits than if crossing with a second modern.

The more fun one I'm working on and has unknown (but likely far worse) odds is Rubiginosa x Modern (thornless, because why not). Based on the results of someone with Canina X Spinosissima and the F1 being the expected mostly canina like in appearance but the F2 being an array of ploidies as the meiosis broke down. In theory juvenile (tetra or dip) rebloomer could be possible in the F2 without diluting the foliage scent genes too much, just may take something crazy like a million seedlings to find (hurray for 25+ seeds a hip...)....impossible odds here I come. Have already seen some odd results from Lord Penzance selfs that look mostly spin (and have the spin die back, dead wood grossness) rather than rubiginosa so that's encouraging (to me).

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:59 pm

Good point, Plaz.

I'm trying some outdoor seed plots this year to plant larger quantities of OP seed from the aforementioned modern-species F1's, planning to scout for those 27 out of 1000.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Fri Nov 01, 2019 3:24 am

jbergeson wrote:
Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:29 pm
If you're in zone 5 that should make your work easier, because the once-blooming seedlings in the first generation of a species-modern cross should be able to have enough live wood to bloom. Then you cross the best of them with another rebloomer and select for juvenile bloom in that F2 generation. In theory, about one in six of the (modern x species) x modern seedlings should bloom (assuming tetraploids). If working with a diploid species, it should be easier to recover rebloom but also the species' influence will be diluted more quickly.
The other option is sib/selfing the F1 for a 1 in 36 juvenile bloom in the F2 (compared to 1 in 6)

Sure the odds are low, you'll get only approx 27 out of 1000 so would need to harvest a lot of seed but you'd be able to cull very quickly for juvenile bloom so space shouldnt be a huge issue and you'd retain more of the species which is possibly a better breeder/bridge for whatever you're hoping to get from the species.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Thu Oct 31, 2019 10:29 pm

It is likely that your R. woodsii seed could benefit from a warm stratification period prior to the cold stratification.

If you're in zone 5 that should make your work easier, because the once-blooming seedlings in the first generation of a species-modern cross should be able to have enough live wood to bloom. Then you cross the best of them with another rebloomer and select for juvenile bloom in that F2 generation. In theory, about one in six of the (modern x species) x modern seedlings should bloom (assuming tetraploids). If working with a diploid species, it should be easier to recover rebloom but also the species' influence will be diluted more quickly.

To be realistic... modern x species cross made in 2020, F1's germinate spring 2021, F1's bloom in 2023 and the best are crossed with moderns immediately (in both directions to maximize chances of success). F2's germinate in 2024. About 1 in 6 of them bloom that spring (juvenile bloom is a reliable predictor of remontancy) and are your first reblooming seedlings with 25% species blood. Maybe your F1's could bloom in 2022 if you have a longer growing season.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Thu Oct 31, 2019 4:34 pm

Joe, thank you for the detailed information. I am looking for at least snow level cane hardiness in zone 5 and eventually zone 4, but that is at the point of attaining good repeat bloom along with beauty and fragrance. A lot will depend (I think) on generations required to reach good repeat bloom and how well cold hardiness can be maintained through those generations. Certainly snowline hardy in zone 3 seems like a great starting point for me in my goals, provided I can work for several generations without becoming much more tender.
Any thoughts on various avenues that could be used to try and accomplish that if it takes a couple more generations to gain the repeat?

By the way, I love that fragrance (thinking Gertude Jeckyl for example, along with many old roses), although I also love Tea rose and a myriad of combinations of scents.
thanks again!

Oh yes, I gathered seed from what I believe to be Rosa woodsi this fall when camping. I also got seed from a rose I found camping up in the North Cascades that was at pretty good elevation, not sure what it was, but figured it might be pretty hardy. Anyone experience with germinating seed from Rosa Woodsi?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Thu Oct 31, 2019 1:21 pm

Duane, I first must give the caveat that my R. virginiana and R. carolina came from Lawyer Nurseries, and look very similar to each other. My assumption is that all they're either one or the other, but I haven't gone to work to figure out which one it is. Therefore, when I talk about R. carolina or R. virginiana it can't be assumed that whatever clone you end up getting of one or the other will produce identical results.

The "deserved reputation" about which I was speaking was in reference to the difficulty of using R. carolina or R. virginiana as seed parents. They seem to be reluctant to accept pollen from roses that are not closely related, genetically. Furthermore, it is difficult to determine whether any resulting seedlings are successful crosses, as they all seem to closely resemble the species seed parent. I have obtained successful crosses onto carolina/virginiana using R. centifolia, Above & Beyond, Red Dawn x Suzanne, Suzanne, Robert Erskine's Aurora, and perhaps a few others. Doing so took a lot of effort and time, and confirms to me that R. carolina is best used as a pollen parent unless absolutely necessary.

However, I do believe that carolina/virginiana have a lot to offer cold climate breeders when used as pollen parents. Seedlings from modern x carolina crosses have a tendency of having enormous vigor, which is one of the characteristics we need when breeding modern die-back rebloomers. Too much vigor, in fact, but it is better to have too much than too little for those of us up north. While not as tip-hardy as R. woodsii or R. acicularis, for example, the carolina/virginiana species are still way hardier than modern die-back roses, and thus add hardiness while adding vigor. Additionally, their foliage characteristics combine very well with modern rose foliage. They seem to have excellent blackspot resistance and tolerance to cercospora. Mildew and rust can be an issue, but I've been working towards selecting healthier specimens to act as starting points.

Their tetraploid nature combines well with modern roses, but makes it difficult to regain rebloom until the third generation. After several years I am just now getting some seedlings that rebloom and have a significant portion of virginiana/carolina genetics.

I think the rose I pictured was actually BFY x [R. carolina x (Red Dawn x Suzanne)], but the BFY x CAROCENT has a similar old rose appearance. Yes, a really strong fragrance...kind of a rose-water fragrance that not everyone likes.

In terms of hardiness, that seedling represents what happens when crossing carolina/virginiana with tender modern roses. You get something that dies back to about a foot tall in this Zone 3 climate and is not able to bloom every year. We had excellent snow cover last winter, to which I attribute the fact that these BFY crosses were able to bloom this season.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Thu Oct 31, 2019 11:38 am

How cold hardy is the cross Blue for You x (carolina x centifolia)? That is a beautiful rose. You said it was fragrant?

Would you recommend R. Carolina, or does the deserved reputation cause you to recommend something else? What would that be?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Wed Oct 30, 2019 9:47 pm

[quote=mntlover post_id=70521 time=1572461888 user_id=2154]
Also interesting that you used centifolia. Could you expound on why that was your choice, as I've read a lot about sterility issues, and apparently that isn't the case with the pollen you used. Any thoughts?
[/quote]

It's been a while since I made that cross. I was just interested in combining species-type tetraploids, I think. It's been a while. I don't even have centifolia any more. I was putting anything and everything on R. carolina, which has a well-deserved reputation of being reluctant to accept foreign pollen. The resulting seedling was clearly a hybrid because it is double. Very fragrant. I used it quite a bit two or three years ago in a fit of enthusiasm, but haven't used it recently.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:53 pm

and thanks Rob. I wasn't surprised that new growth had some purple mixed in, but was not expecting older growth to. Nor was I expecting all of it to turn more purple in fall, especially the stems. Reminded me of Party Hardy like that. Which was a pollen on Mary Rose, but not on PAK. I was thinking of Therese Bugnet for the purple stems also. Do other cold hardy plants you have turn more purple stemmed in fall?
Duane

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Wed Oct 30, 2019 6:51 pm

I forgot this Rugelda seedling. It has been really healthy this season, considering the surroundings. I asked about this one when it germinated because the leaves were yellow (almost gold) instead of green. It has survived and grown, although a very small bush that has not bloomed yet. Now the do not turn from gold to green, but pass through gold, bronze, copper, then turn green. If several branches are growing it can have all at the same time. This is all season on new growth, not fall color like my other seedlings. There is one other seedling like this from Rugelda that I kept, although it does not have as much coloring. Still waiting on flowers for both though, so who knows.

And thank you Plazbo for that info!

Duane
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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Plazbo » Wed Oct 30, 2019 5:50 pm

mntlover wrote:
Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:58 pm
Also interesting that you used centifolia. Could you expound on why that was your choice, as I've read a lot about sterility issues, and apparently that isn't the case with the pollen you used. Any thoughts?
Thats more a mechanical failure in centifolia, in most the majority of sexual parts are converted to petals so theres not much pollen if any and what is there is trapped in many layers of petals so natural pollinators cant access it and it doesnt touch the stamens. There are or were sports of centifolia with lower petal counts that had typical fertility.

In warmer climates (india, pakistan) centifolia reportedly sets hips, the cause of that Im not sure of. Its likely fuss in what pollen it accepts and heat stresses can alter how blooms develop (like heat stress in Baby Faurax, Blue For You, Eyes For You result in smaller white to pink tinged blooms that never develop the purple colours). I seem to have a hip on crested moss with its child helga brauer (which also came from seed of crested moss).

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Rob Byrnes » Wed Oct 30, 2019 3:20 pm

Nicely colored leaves Duane.

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by mntlover » Wed Oct 30, 2019 2:58 pm

Love two avenues to possibly get Rugosa into modern!
Really love the bloom Blue For You x (R. Carolina x r. Centifolia)

I have wondered if coming up with another avenue would be good to try, basically recreating English Roses, but more cold hardy and preferably more disease resistant. That is what I will be evaluating this winter. I'm excited to see where this avenue leads you! Also interesting that you used centifolia. Could you expound on why that was your choice, as I've read a lot about sterility issues, and apparently that isn't the case with the pollen you used. Any thoughts?

I'll attach several photos of two seedlings I'm watching to see. Both were disease resistant, even with rust, mildew and blackspot on other plants in the border (although not all three on each plant on either side of them), so time will tell, but good so far. No blooms this season, although I had to prune back the longer branches to dig them up and put them in pots.

One is Princess Alexandra of Kent x William Baffin (I believe because only other pollen parent was Lady of Shallot)
other seedling is from Mary Rose. I believe pollen parent could be William Baffin also, as the seedlings are so similar.
Expecting pink flower, hopefully double to fully double and fragrant, but we'll see.

Other two seedlings I'm really interested in (no pics yet) are Hansa x English Rose and Therese Bugnet x Mary Rose. Only one from each that cross didn't have genetic issues, at least none that have surfaced yet. Disease resistant so far..

Duane
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M.R. x W.B..jpg
PAK x W. B. 2.jpg
PAK x W. B..jpg

Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by Rob Byrnes » Tue Oct 29, 2019 10:25 am

Nice job Joe! I really like your 1128 for form and color. If you need a test garden for YWP I can make room. :-)

more carolina descendants

by jbergeson » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:57 pm

Blue for You x (R. carolina x (Red Dawn x Suzanne))

Strong fragrance, good vigor. Non-remontant. I used its pollen quite a bit to see if I could recover rebloom.

I have another seedling with similar blossoms which is Blue for You x (R. carolina x R. centifolia).
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Re: All A'Twitter x Yatkan

by jbergeson » Mon Oct 28, 2019 11:43 pm

I'll turn this into a show and tell thread because Duane asked a leading question...

1128: 1048 x FIVI3. I liked the very double, pale yellow blossoms and shrubby habit of this rose. Seems healthy, vigorous, and hardy and has fun genetics. Non-remontant.

1048 is YWP (https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.216469) x blended pollen of Hazeldean and Pink Double Knock Out. I'm really baffled as to how 1048 ended up a reblooming, large, healthy, orange-yellow rose with a scent like that of Morden Sunrise. The seed parent YWP was pale yellow and not particularly healthy or hardy, if I remember correctly. Pink DKO could have given health, but would have been unlikely to confer hardiness or that Morden Sunrise type of color (not as big or gorgeous a blossom, but similar coloration and fragrance). So it makes me wonder if this was a freak occurrence of Hazeldean (which I think is in the parentage of Morden Sunrise) throwing a reblooming F1. 1048 just keeps trucking along, shrubby and healthy. It is a sparse bloomer, which precludes commercial release.

FIVI3 is First Impression x R. virginiana. It apparently experiences preferential pairing that makes it pass on nearly zero rebloomers in the first generation. However, that same preferential pairing means that its seedlings such as 1128, though non-remontant, will pass on 50% rebloomers in crosses with rebloomers, and 25% rebloomers when self-pollinated or crossed with other FIVI3 seedlings.

See captions...pics of both parents and 1128.
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