Taming The wild Ones

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Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66441Post chuckp
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:29 pm

Much have been written about breeding species roses into garden roses. The objectives of course is to eliminate the diseases garden roses and thus curtail the need for remedial spraying of harmful chemicals.
Let me first say, I'm not a trained scientist. I'm hoping those who are trained in the science of plant breeding  would use this opportunity to educate us and bring us along.
If someone had tell me twenty years ago  it were possible to cross wild roses growing along the country roads with garden roses I would have thought them nuts.

In 2008 I crossed Carefree Beauty with a wild rose growing on the roadside near my home.
This wild rose has now been identified by Olsen and Schowalter as Rosa Arkansana. It thrives on the gravel limestone shoulders of the country roads surrounding Winnipeg.
These roses are tough, they grow in such infertile and inhospitable environment. Surviving mowing in summer and road salt and temperatures of -40 Celsius in winter.
The other rose I worked with is rosa Acicularis. I Found this plant growing in one of the non-discript country roads north of Winnipeg.

With only one hundred growing days. It's difficult to make quick progress in this frozen hinterland.
The following pictures hopefully explain my efforts.
The hybrid have bigger leaves than either parent.
Carefree Beauty x R. Arkansana
R. Arkansana growing on the roadway.

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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66442Post chuckp
Sun Nov 12, 2017 3:47 pm

More species crosses.
Carefree Beauty x R.Arkansana hips.
R.Acicularis x R.Fedtschenoana
Morden Blush x R.Fedtschenkoana, semi-double white and pale pink seedlings.

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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66444Post chuckp
Sun Nov 12, 2017 7:51 pm

Bringing the species into winter hardy yellows.
2017-11-12 18.42.01.jpg
((Morden Blush x R. Fedtschenkoana) x South Africa )

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Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15

Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66445Post roseseek
Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:35 pm

Those are some nice results, Charles!
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Paul G. Olsen
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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66446Post Paul G. Olsen
Sun Nov 12, 2017 11:13 pm

Good work, Charles. I've always liked the idea of combining North American and European/Asian species, for example.

Maybe I'll just expand on the importance of using species in a breeding program. Yes, some can be important for improving disease resistance. Example, Rosa wichurana. But on the Canadian Prairies, of course, the three native species (Rosa acicularis, R. woodsii and R. arkansana) are the most useful for increasing cold hardiness. Just a reminder because I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you already know. These species will actually generally decrease disease resistance in a breeding program with modern roses. It's probably best to first combine them with a more disease resistant species like Rosa rugosa and then use these hybrids in a breeding program.

Of great importance using rose species in a breeding program is producing new types, which is mainly characterized by the shrub form. I think this is severely neglected by breeders (I know; I'm likely repeating myself in earlier posts on this subject). This is especially important for roses used for residential and park/green space landscaping. I've always said the most beautiful roses ever developed are the Hybrid Musk cultivars ('Belinda', for example) showing the influence of Rosa multiflora in their pedigrees. The Louis Lens Rosa multiflora hybrids are comparable in beauty to these Hybrid Musk cultivars.

Species can also potentially add root system mass (Rosa palustris, for example), vigour, flower colour and fragrance, and stem and foliage colour in breeding programs. Regarding the latter characteristic, Rosa glauca has been negelcted in this respect. If combined first with Rosa fedtschenkoana, for example, and used in a breeding program with modern roses this might produce a wide variety of grey and red colours in the progeny's foliage, which would be a beautiful contrast to the flowers. But this would be a long term breeding project, likely taking a minimum of three generations of work to attain any positive results.

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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66449Post philip_la
Mon Nov 13, 2017 12:00 am

Paul, thanks for your comments on native northern species and disease resistance. You may have answered a question I had pondered about the dearth of hybrids (as found on HMF) of these species, and why...

I'm wondering which (relatively underused) species folks here feel might lend the most to disease-resistance... That has certainly been a large part of my thinking in turning more to species. (I had assumed too that native species might offer resistance to native strains of disease.)

And I too have wondered about concentrating on lines of glauca, fedtschenkoana, and/or souliana crosses for cooler colored foliage. I think such could be quite attractive, generally harmonious with, and a good backdrop for nearly any flower color.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66453Post jbergeson
Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:51 am

Philip, I'm sold on R. carolina/virginiana for its glossy foliage that seems to integrate well with modern roses and increase health. The species themselves also seem quite hardy in my Zone 3 location, although not hardy to the very tip like R. acicularis and others.

Chuck, your local R. arkansana pic is similar to those posted in another recent thread in regards to something like stippling and a darker line through the center of the petals.

I'm leery of R. glauca because of its odd genetics and horrid blackspot susceptibility.

This year R. nitida was my baby. I love the glossy foliage and glowing fall color of my specimen (and some of its seedlings). I hope that since its a diploid it will be easier to regain the reblooming characteristic after crossing it with modern rebloomers. Will the likely triploid seedlings have the same tendency towards sterility as rugosa x modern crosses? We will see.

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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66454Post chuckp
Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:44 am

More pictures.
2017-11-13 08.27.33.jpg
CFB x R. ARK. Hybrid one metre high x one and a half mites wide. blooms over a long period.
2017-11-13 08.27.06.jpg
R. Arkansana growing along gravel shoulder of country roads.
2017-11-13 08.26.36.jpg
Could this be a R.Arkansana variant?

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Re: Taming The wild Ones

Post: # 66470Post chuckp
Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:43 am

Thanks to everyone for your insightful comments. Please keep them coming.
I'll be coming back to this subject from time to time.
One of the things I'm observing as I process these F1 hybrid seeds is the low seed set.
Paul, in a recent thread, you wondered why Henry Marshall didn't use yellow Floribundas and Hybrid Teas in his crosses.
Sterility in the F1 crosses maybe a reason why he didn't make much progress.

I have a pink Rio Samba (unknown ploidy) x Explorer hybrid (tetraploid) cross made in 2004. This plant stands six feet tall, Disease free, covered in blooms all summer. Produces copious amounts of seeds and green to the tip in spring.
I thought this was going to be a game changer. The seeds are difficult to germinate, and the pollen produces few seeds when used.

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