Newbie question

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Moongoose72
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Newbie question

Post: # 70363Post Moongoose72
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:15 am

Hello! I am completely without experience. This spring, I first sowed seeds from free pollination. In the summer I already pollinated a lot myself. Hips are growing. Some hips begin to change color, but after flowering only three months have passed. At what point is it better to pluck hips? This spring, seeds from the hips that were just starting to change color sprouted better. Seeds from fully mature hips hardly sprouted. Hips grow on these varieties -

Golden Celebration - the hip began to change color (not a single sprouting in the last sowing)
Rumba
Peace
Pullman Orient Express
Rosemary Harkness
Wild Rover
Rosarium Uetersen
Charles Austin
Sharifa Asma
Royal Jubilee
Wollerton Old Hall
Flammentanz - the hip began to change color
Astrid Grafin von Hardenberg
Blue for You - the hip began to change color
Belvedere
Abraham Darby
Pink Robusta - the hip began to change color (not a single sprouting in the last sowing)
Summer Song
Lady Emma Hamilton


Thanks in advance for your advice!

chuckp
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70364Post chuckp
Mon Sep 16, 2019 8:30 am

Hi Moongoose 72

Welcome, you will find here some very knowledgeable, kind and helpful folks here.
You gave no reference as to what zone you live in and what are your breeding objects.
chuckp

Moongoose72
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70365Post Moongoose72
Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:19 am

Zone 5B
I indicated the mother plants, but pollinated, in the main, a mixture of pollen. There are definitely such crosses -
Belvedere x Blue For You
Blue For You x Belvedere
Flammentanz x Golden Celebration
Rumba x Summer Song
Rumba x Superstar

roseseek
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70366Post roseseek
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:09 pm

Welcome Mongoose! Generally, hips are mature after roughly 110 or so days after pollinating. I date the tags I use to mark my crosses so I don't have to guess and wait until they change colors. Some change dramatically, some don't change at all. It's a rose you will never grow in Zone 5, but the old Tea rose, Papa Gontier has hips which remain the same shade of green from beginning until they fall off the plant. Just like some apples do. If you date the tags, either with the date the cross was made, or with the date you expect the hip to be sufficiently mature for harvest, you won't have to wonder or guess whether they should be taken yet or not. Good luck!
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

jbergeson
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70369Post jbergeson
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:03 pm

Will Radler once said to me "Why?" when I mentioned letting the hips get fully ripe. He didn't provide many details, but apparently they don't need to fully color up. I simply don't get 110 days around here in northern MN, and I find it hard to stop pollinating in the summer, so I end up picking quite a few green hips and still get (some) germination. Usually, though, I'll wait until they color up if I can. I think it is important to get the seeds moist immediately after shelling them, never allowing them to dry out completely.

roseseek
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70371Post roseseek
Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:56 pm

Which all makes sense when you think about it. Nature is going to provide as many chances of success as she can, using whatever methods she can muster. I read and use the 110 days simply because in my impatience, I would pollinate and then plant the same day, if possible! LOL! Like the two young vultures sitting on the fence...."Patience my foot! I'm going to go KILL something!"
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Larry Davis
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70375Post Larry Davis
Fri Sep 20, 2019 10:38 pm

About hip picking in autumn. A couple years ago (fall 2017) I had access to a bunch of OP hips on two plants of a yellow HT/grandiflora of uncertain parentage but rather like Julia child. I knew that they had set at midsummer or later but a hard frost was coming. So I cut them off long with leaves still attached to the stems and treated them like cuttings under lights in the basement, in moist potting soil under plastic produce bags. Hips that were pink ripe on that date (Oct 14) gave 22/47 germinations Feb-Apr of 2018 while 62 seed from unripe hips gave zero. Both these had standard 20 mM nitrate at continuous 40 F treatment. Seed in matched lots cycled 3 mo cold and 1 warm over about a year gave no germ.

On Dec 15 I declared the cuttings hips to be ripened, harvested and planted 110 seeds from which I got 51 germinations late Apr-June and a couple later. For 26 seed of several hips that went moldy while cuttings, I got 0 germ. Going back to the garden plants Dec 15 I harvested 53 seeds from apparently late ripening hips. From these I got 10 germ in June-Oct.

Ralph Moore many years ago described ripening hips of miniatures in plastic bags on a bright window sill. They must have been near ripe as he reported that they colored up in 10 days or so. Mine took a couple months before some of them began to change color. And I don't recall that the cuttings actually took root to grow.

Karl K
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70438Post Karl K
Tue Oct 08, 2019 2:49 pm

There are also some things to be said for unripe seeds, as Van Mons explained back in the early 19th century.

Downing (1849): "It will be remembered that it is a leading feature in this [Van Mons'] theory that, in order to improve the fruit, we must subdue or enfeeble the original coarse luxuriance of the tree."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Downing1849.html

Reading Downing's translation, one may suppose that Van Mons' productions were inherently weak. This is not the case. We may note that some of Van Mons' pears are still being cultivated.

In fact, Van Mons worked to reduce the "coarse luxuriance" associated with the juvenile (non-flowering) stage of the tree's life. Pear trees growing in the forests could live 10 to 12 years before they began to flower and fruit. But under Van Mons' efforts, fifth generation pears were flowering just four years from seed, and some fruited in their third year.

For example, Cayeux (1929) wrote that Rosa gigantea seedlings, "developed so vigorously as to produce stems from 8 to 10 meters (26 to 33 feet) long in a single year." After the plants began blooming, he cleft grafted flowering wood onto Tea roses growing on Eglantine. In this way he had plants of a more manageable size to use for breeding.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/gigantea.htm

In Van Mons' system, the goal was to reduce the vegetative (juvenile) phase and hasten flowering to the point that grafting was no longer necessary to produce compact trees. This technique has been verified for tomatoes by Goff (1892), morning glories by Taylor (1906), among others.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/GoffUn ... e1892.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/Tayler ... y1906.html
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/OldSeed.html

Constitutional vigor is a separate matter. It is the inherent ability to survive in adverse conditions. Unripe seeds tend to give a lower percentage of germination, but this is not necessarily a bad thing. Immature seeds provide less support for the emerging embryos. Therefore, embryos enjoying superior constitutional vigor have a better chance of surviving.

Van Mons noted that garden roses and choice fruit trees of his time were like exotics. But his own productions?

"I have kept only the most beautiful of my roses and I dropped them in the greatest abandonment, having planted them in the worst possible soil and having not had them moved for 18 years. This lack of culture has not prevented them from retaining all the splendor of their original beauty. I could ask what culture has ever been delivered to a more complete abandonment than the fruit trees of my nursery experience in this city."
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... s1835.html

BTW, I must mention that Van Mons' writing style is not entirely clear. In part, this may come from using a 21st century translator (Google) to read a book published in 1835. I include the French original, and would appreciate any clarifications.

Moongoose72
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70445Post Moongoose72
Fri Oct 11, 2019 6:30 am

Many thanks to all who responded! I read several times that seeds from fully colored fruits have less germination than seeds from fruits that have just begun to stain. Ostensibly due to the fact that seeds from fully stained fruits accumulate substances that impede germination. Is it so?

Don
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70446Post Don
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:27 pm

There is some truth to this but in practice it is one of many factors that influence germination. I would not rush to harvest my hips based on this assumption that earlier means better germination. If you want a general rule for harvest then, say, 106 days after pollination would be a better metric to use but, again, it would depend on when pollination occurred. Early hips get the benefit of much summer sunlight whilst later hips need longer for the same benefit.

>> seeds from fully stained fruits accumulate substances that impede germination. Is it so?
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

henry kuska
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70449Post henry kuska
Fri Oct 11, 2019 4:53 pm

When you ask about seed germination experience from other hybridizers, I recommend that you consider the type of rose seed that the hybridizer uses. (Common hybrid tea seed behavior may be very different than near species seeds.)

Larry Davis
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70450Post Larry Davis
Fri Oct 11, 2019 11:15 pm

Henry is most certainly correct. So is Don. On the RHA website is a long review I wrote on all the germination papers I could find in about 2014. No big breakthroughs since. Some species have an optimum harvest time. For instance decades ago R canina germinated best at a certain stage of red, fully ripe but not gone soft. I've seen the same. A species used in eastern Europe as a rootstock did best when stored dry for 6-8 years. R souliana in China reportedly germinated better when kept for a year than when tested fresh. By contrast R rugosa does best when stratified just ripe, but is also fine after a winter outside in Nebraska, in my experience. And for HT types in a mediterranean climate, planting outside directly sometime after harvest works very well. No one size fits all, either places or cultivars.

mntlover
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Re: Newbie question

Post: # 70465Post mntlover
Tue Oct 15, 2019 2:43 pm

I had seeds from Golden Celebration that started to color a bit (I brought them inside for a bit, perhaps I should have kept them in hip longer) none of them were germinating. I finally performed a c section on them and managed to get six plants to grow. Same experience with Abraham Darby. Don't know if their germination is poor or if they needed a longer or warmer summer for the hips. But an operation may get you more babies with them if you have the time.

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