Non-fading suggestions

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jdreyerrose
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Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70146Post jdreyerrose
Wed Jul 31, 2019 12:32 pm

Wondering if I could ask for your recommendations for non-fading parents to breed for deep orange, yellow and purple? Thanks

roseseek
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Location: Zone 9b Central California, Sunset Zone 15
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70147Post roseseek
Wed Jul 31, 2019 2:31 pm

The most unfading orange for me is Kordes Brilliant. Its offspring, however, have been anything BUT "unfading", though they have had terminal mildew. I love the rose, but nothing resulting from it. I've not encountered anything yellow nor purple which hasn't faded, though Blue for You produces some of the most outrageous colors in its fade.
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

srpshoy

Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70150Post srpshoy
Wed Jul 31, 2019 6:27 pm

I just planted 'Floranje' this year. It is maintaining its vibrant orange-red color in 90+F temps (compared to other reds I think of it as orange). I have a friend who is using 'Paul Ecke, Jr,' also non-facing for me, with success.
Stephen

Plazbo
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70151Post Plazbo
Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:10 pm

There's a rose here in Australia called Fearless. Its starts neon orange and darkens to a burnt orange rather fades. Its not seed fertile for me but the pollen seems to have some viability. Its colour is great but the plant is questionable at best.

Granted doesnt seem like its available outside of Australia (despite being bred in the UK).

Looking at the breeders other roses though Hallé (Fryelectric) looks like its more widely avaialble and has similar colouring. May be worth looking at Gareth Fryers other orange roses, theres a bunch, since Halle was just a first brief while on the train.

Jwindha
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70153Post Jwindha
Thu Aug 01, 2019 11:17 am

I like 'Ty' for a nice, strong yellow. It's also a very clean plant here. Although, it can be a little difficult to work with and the petals persist on the plant well after the bloom is spent.

'Ty': https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.39066.1&tab=1

I've never worked with it, but 'Screaming Neon Red' looks pretty vibrant: https://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l. ... 19.2&tab=1

-Jonathan

Karl K
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70216Post Karl K
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:27 pm

This is slightly off-topic, but I found a couple of articles dealing with the inheritance of orange (pelargonidin derivatives) in crosses with yellow varieties.

de Vries: Flavonoids in rose petals (1974)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... e1974.html
de Vries: Rose pigments II (1980)
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/ ... s1980.html

One of the disadvantages of "old" research is that some of the useful facts have not yet been completely separated from the not-so-useful bits. Still, there are some worthwhile observations.

First, there is a correlation among the occurrence of kaempferol, callistephin
 (pelargonidin-3-monoglucoside) and pelargonin (pelargonidin-3,5-diglucoside).
Likewise, quercetin is associated with chrysanthemin
 (cyanidin-3-monoglucoside) and cyanin 
(cyanidin-3,5-diglucoside).

This may look very esoteric, but it has practical applications. A white or yellow rose with no trace of red pigment, but containing quercetin, will likely give red or purply offspring when crossed with an orange type. A different white or yellow, containing kaempferol, will give more orange-toned offspring when crossed with an orange.

The 1974 paper gives a long list of roses with their flavonoid contents. Some of these, identified as "IVT no ..." were bred by the authors but not introduced. They did contribute to the statistical analysis, so there's that. Some of the others might still be useful for breeding.

Arisumi (1963) also dealt with the various anthocyanin pigments, and raised an interesting issue. Even in the dwarf Polyantha roses that can produce lots of pelargonin, callistephin is rare.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/RosePigme ... 963_4.html

In most other plants, the 3,5-diglucosides are produced from the 3-monoglucosides. Not in roses. Roses are weird. Instead, there is a separate enzyme that sticks a glucose molecule on position 5 of the anthocyanidin molecule, which is an unstable thing. The same enzyme then quickly sticks another glucose on position 3, and all is fine and stable.

The big point here is that the 3-monoglucosides and 3,5-diglucosides are chemically akin, but result from different enzymes (encoded by different genes).

This all becomes a lot more interesting and a little more complicated because the 3-glucotransferase (3-GT for short) comes in at least two flavors. One works in the usual way, making pigment in the petals that are available when the flowers open. The other form just sits there waiting for light and heat before it gets busy. This is the enzyme responsible for the lovely chameleon roses that deepen in color as they age. 'Mutabilis' is an example, 'Color Magic', 'Emmie Gray', and 'Masquerade' are a few more.

Sadly, this same 3-GT is responsible for the faint purplish flush that dulls the color of 'Margo Koster' in the summer months.

Stable coloring is good. But there is also the possibility of deepening color of one pigment compensating for the fading of another.

For instance, luteolin deepens in color (yellowish) when exposed to UV. Yellow carotenes tend to fade. I don't know for sure that 'Devoniensis' contains luteolis, but the flowers do become more yellowish (yellow snow-ish) as they age. This color is not very attractive, but it wouldn't be bad if it were combined with bright yellow.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... ensis.html

Karl

jdreyer
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70269Post jdreyer
Mon Aug 19, 2019 9:29 am

thanks for the feedback everyone. Appreciate the articles Karl...I just got Independence which is on the list....and can look at pedigrees of others I am using to see if they have any of these varieties. Lots of science done in days past!

david zlesak
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70284Post david zlesak
Sat Aug 24, 2019 9:11 pm

I haven't seen 'Twinkling Lights' for sale in a year or so, but Jackson and Perkins was selling it. The yellow color is very rich and doesn't seem to fade much at all. Unfortunately, it doesn't set any hips. I tried some of its pollen and have to check to see if any hips are forming using it.
Attachments
Twinkling Lights.jpeg
Twinkling Lights mini

Karl K
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70285Post Karl K
Sun Aug 25, 2019 1:28 am

Karl K wrote:
Thu Aug 08, 2019 2:27 pm
Sadly, this same 3-GT is responsible for the faint purplish flush that dulls the color of 'Margo Koster' in the summer months.
I think I got that bit wrong. I checked my pics and found this one that shows two-toned color that suggests the heat/light sensitive form of 3-GT is working with pelargonidin derivatives in 'Margo Koster'. The faint purplish tint that dulls the color in summer may be due to the enzyme that transforms dihydrokaempferol to dihydroquercitin functions better in heat. Thus cyanidin and peonidin derivatives (when present) are more abundant in heat. Cyanidin tends to "blue" when combined with co-pigments.
Image
HelpMeFind lists only one non-sport offspring raised from 'Margo Koster', the pink-flowered 'Jack Horner' (Margo Koster x Tom Thumb).
Karl

chuckp
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70286Post chuckp
Sun Aug 25, 2019 8:41 am

Hi David,
I don't see "Twinkling Lights" listed on HMF. Can you tell us more about this rose?
chuckp

david zlesak
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70289Post david zlesak
Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:13 pm

Hi Chuck!

I'm not sure of its story. I saw it for sale online through J&P a couple years ago and was excited to try it because it is yellow. It grows like a mini and I forgot if they sold it as a mini or shrub. There was no code or variety name in small print associated with the marketing or tag. I'm not sure who bred it or the details for how they got it. Maybe it was something left from Dr. Keith Zary from the breeding program he had at J&P? It is such a nice color I wonder why they stopped selling it. I don't think they have a different yellow mini for sale that is as richly colored they substituted it with.

Larry Davis
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Re: Non-fading suggestions

Post: # 70290Post Larry Davis
Sun Aug 25, 2019 3:58 pm

First Impression, by Jim Sproul has given me very saturated yellows that last. Not very winter hardy at 0 F or below and will get blackspot if there is any in town. But I've crossed it to get some very good yellows that don't have BS. It resists mildew and can improve it's partner's performance. For instance my 13-1 which I think is on HMF is Orange Surprise x 1st Imp. And I have another mini that I call "better than 13-1", which has a bit bigger flowers that hold even longer (and must be a seedling of 13-1).

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