Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

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jakaufmann
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Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70244Post jakaufmann
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:15 pm

I know I've been asking a lot of questions, but I appreciate everyone's answers so much! You've all be incredibly helpful.

Next year, I've decided to focus on red (hopefully dark red/black, but I'm starting slightly broader using reds in general). In addition, I'd love to get a dark red striped rose. I absolutely LOVE the two roses Dave Bang got from Black Black Baccara and Flash Night. Sadly, I can't get Flash Night here in China, so I'm using Forth of July and Scentimental for stripes. In addition, I'd like to try for a very disease resistant rose. Specifically, if I could get a dark red (almost black) floribunda and/or the same with stripes...I'd be extremely happy!

Overall, this is my list of roses for next year. The majority of roses I chose either based on suggestions to use as parents, because I like the color/traits, or because they seemed to be used successfully for crosses in Help Me Find. Ultimately, I've had to choose based on whether they even exist in China. Most of them are at least partially disease resistant. I've included whether I'm using them as Seed (S) or Pollen (P) parent.
  • Showbiz (S)
  • Queen Elizabeth (S)
  • Sheri Anne (S)
  • Olympiad (S)
  • Black Baccara (S)
  • Oklahoma (S)
  • Altissimo (P)
  • Fourth of July (P)
  • Scentimental (P)
  • Bad Fussing (S)(P)
  • Moulin Rouge (S)(P)
  • George Vancouver (P)
  • Ulmer Münster (P)
Besides getting your overall thoughts on my choices, what do you think of using Oklahoma as a Seed parent? Has anyone tried this? I love it's dark red color, intense fragrance, and disease resistance. It has almost everything I'd want in a parent. I just don't know of its fertility.

Thanks so much!

roseseek
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70246Post roseseek
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:40 pm

Only three of the first generation offspring from Oklahoma came from it as seed parent. Herb Swim wrote how Mr. Lincoln, one of Oklahoma's siblings, was a bad seed germinator. Perhaps that issue extends to Oklahoma? I don't know, but it appears from the documented results on Help Me Find-Roses that using Oklahoma as a pollen parent has been more successful. From experience, I would add Fourth of July and Altissimo to your seed parent list as both make copious self set hips and their seeds germinate like rye grass. That doesn't mean you can't also use them for pollen, but why limit your chances by missing out of a guaranteed germinator?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

Karl K
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70247Post Karl K
Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:48 am

roseseek wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:40 pm
Only three of the first generation offspring from Oklahoma came from it as seed parent. Herb Swim wrote how Mr. Lincoln, one of Oklahoma's siblings, was a bad seed germinator. Perhaps that issue extends to Oklahoma?
Looks like 'Papa Meilland', third sibling of the same parentage, is also more successful as pollen parent.

jakaufmann
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70248Post jakaufmann
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:14 am

roseseek wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:40 pm
From experience, I would add Fourth of July and Altissimo to your seed parent list as both make copious self set hips and their seeds germinate like rye grass. That doesn't mean you can't also use them for pollen, but why limit your chances by missing out of a guaranteed germinator?
That is really interesting! In the lists I had found, they were both mostly suggested as pollen parents, but I'll add them to my seed parent list!

jakaufmann
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70249Post jakaufmann
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:15 am

jakaufmann wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 1:14 am
roseseek wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 11:40 pm
From experience, I would add Fourth of July and Altissimo to your seed parent list as both make copious self set hips and their seeds germinate like rye grass. That doesn't mean you can't also use them for pollen, but why limit your chances by missing out of a guaranteed germinator?
That is really interesting! In the lists I had found, they were both mostly suggested as pollen parents, but I'll add them to my seed parent list!
Hmm, that is interesting. I guess, at this point, I need to decide whether to use Oklahoma or Pap Meilland. I'm not sure if both will be available, so I guess I might choose the one that is available! But if both are, which would you suggest? I know, it might be up to a random choice.

roseseek
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70252Post roseseek
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:11 am

If mildew and black spot are issues, neither. What are the newest darkest reds available there?
Kim
California Central Coast
USDA Zone 9b
Sunset Zone 15
Cooler inland coastal valley with strong marine influence

chuckp
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70253Post chuckp
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:59 am

Hi Josh,
I looked at your list, many of of the roses you chose I've tired from time to time. In my zone 3 climate.
Tender roses are essentially expensive annuals. I'm lucky to get them survive 3 winters. Maybe it's something I have to
learn to master yet.
George Vancouver would offer a lot of winter hardiness to your hybrids.
Do you have funds for a greenhouse?
chuckp

Karl K
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70261Post Karl K
Thu Aug 15, 2019 11:39 am

roseseek wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 2:11 am
If mildew and black spot are issues, neither.
And ain't that a shame.

I first saw 'Oklahoma' and 'Mr. Lincoln' in Kansas more than 40 years ago. Since then I've seen them in California, Kentucky, Oklahoma and Tennessee. Sad to say, 'Oklahoma' was not splendid at Will Rogers park in Oklahoma City. RRD was bad there.

I first saw 'Papa Meilland' in Kentucky. Wow! No disease apparent there. The velvety crimson color and potent perfume ... did I mention "velvety"? ... just WOW!

Considering the parents' complicated ancestries, it's not surprising that the three beauties are quite different. They really are different.

'Mr. Lincoln' is tall, and tends to grow unevenly ... a bit lop-sided.
'Oklahoma' needs room to spread out as the arching shrub it was born to be.
'Papa Meilland', the one plant I saw, was shorter and displayed its blooms well. I don't know how it would perform if not cut back.

philip_la
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70262Post philip_la
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:07 am

"The majority of roses I chose either based on suggestions to use as parents, because I like the color/traits, or because they seemed to be used successfully for crosses in Help Me Find"

That was once my thinking as well, but I would suggest that what that means is you are ultimately selecting for roses that have been around and have been heavily mined for their genotypes, (Not that that is a bad thing -- Kordes has occasionally returned to seedlings of nearly a half century earlier in their program to good effect.) More offspring, however, might just mean more *attempts* from breeders rather than higher success rates; such is often the case of an historically well-regarded rose. Often, too, you will be looking at older, and perhaps less worthy roses.

(Reminder: see my earlier caveat that I have less actual experience than a great many of the other folks chiming in here!)

If you can play the numbers game -- i.e., have the means to grow thousands of seedlings, then the numbers game afforded by a proven, highly fertile parent might be a good route. For myself, having rather limited realty, I'm willing to struggle/take chances with a new (but seemingly unproven as a parent) rose knowing I will have limited opportunity to grow on large numbers of progeny.

I don't know if Firefighter/Hacienda (Orard) is available where you are, nor how it does as a parent, but it's one on my wish list. It is one of the more highly reviewed of the newer red HT's. I'm throwing that out for selfish reasons too -- I'm curious as to whether anyone here has worked with it, and what their impressions are.
Philip F.
[size=small][color=#669966]Zone 8 / Sunset Zn 30 (Austin, TX -- formerly New Orleans, LA)[/color][/size]

jakaufmann
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70263Post jakaufmann
Fri Aug 16, 2019 1:33 am

philip_la wrote:
Fri Aug 16, 2019 12:07 am
That was once my thinking as well, but I would suggest that what that means is you are ultimately selecting for roses that have been around and have been heavily mined for their genotypes, (Not that that is a bad thing -- Kordes has occasionally returned to seedlings of nearly a half century earlier in their program to good effect.) More offspring, however, might just mean more *attempts* from breeders rather than higher success rates; such is often the case of an historically well-regarded rose. Often, too, you will be looking at older, and perhaps less worthy roses.
Yes, that makes a lot of sense. I considered some of that, but since this will be my first true year of breeding, I decided I'd focus on the methods and process of breeding rather than trying for anything truly unique. However, my goals I started are still the same. I'm just okay with taking my time getting there initially. Essentially, I want to keep things safe because I want to make sure I have enough hips, then seeds, then seedlings to go through all the steps and get a rhythm going. I hope that makes sense.

Im not sure if that rose is available, but generally speaking, it appears that it usually takes at least a few years for a rose to be imported...if at all. Eventually, I hope I'll be able to directly import roses to China, at least for breeding, but that's a future endeavor I'm not ready to take on yet.

jakaufmann
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Re: Can any give suggestions on these roses for breeding?

Post: # 70264Post jakaufmann
Fri Aug 16, 2019 2:34 am

chuckp wrote:
Wed Aug 14, 2019 7:59 am
Hi Josh,
I looked at your list, many of of the roses you chose I've tired from time to time. In my zone 3 climate.
Tender roses are essentially expensive annuals. I'm lucky to get them survive 3 winters. Maybe it's something I have to
learn to master yet.
George Vancouver would offer a lot of winter hardiness to your hybrids.
Do you have funds for a greenhouse?
chuckp
Yes, I'm hoping to create something that is not only disease resistant but also winter hardy, if possible. It's slightly lower on my priorities, but I'd like to at least experiment with it.

Yes, I'm going to have a greenhouse. I'm not entirely sure what kind of setup I'll have yet for seedlings, but I should be fine for the plants come spring. Then, I'll work on figuring out where to put my seedlings.

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