Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

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TreasureTrove

Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30065Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Hi!

Here is my first flowering seedling from a cross out of May 2007 of Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese.

The flower is of a salmon colouring with a small orange base at the petals!

The reverse of the petals is more of light pink, the upper side more of light yellow ... .

For me it was interesting to see, that the yellow colour of Golden Chersonese is no completely given to the descendents.

I supposed this, as there seem to be different (at least two) traits of yellow, one light yellow and one deep yellow.

Sometimes they are mixed as in Golden Chersonese.

But the deep yellow trait seems to be inherited only via maternal paths ... if one takes deep yellow influenced roses as mother plants, not as pollen parents like her.

It will be also interesting to see how the plant further develops, still its a pretty dense bush (only once flowering in spring).

Its not blackspot resistant, but mildew resistant. ...

I put it also on HMF and will add some thoughts there, if possible in the next couple of days.

Grx!

Arno

Link: www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.63633.0[img]http://forum.planten.de/galerie/d/14719 ... gc006.jpeg[/img]

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30067Post Robert Neil Rippetoe
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Lovely!

Fragrance?

Simon

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30069Post Simon
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Yes.... beautiful! I keep putting Golden Chersonese onto Scabrosa but it fails every time. I might try r. alba this year instead. I bet crosses back to r. alba it would improve the disease resistance and maybe retain the yellow/orange.

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30070Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Hi Robert!

Yes a bit, but not so strong as in Rosa rugosa, its a bit more smokey with some citral notes and a bit lighter.

Grx!

Arno

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30071Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Thanks Simon!

Not all diseases are defeated by rugosa alba, e.g. its not black spot resistant.

Also beggeriana is not.

But some crossings with resistant other diploids could be interesting. ...

I have also opened a Rosa rugosa f. alba x Rosa beggeriana Thread at the moment as the seedlings are remontant ... this could also be a good crossing, as the descendants might be remontant ... :-)

http://www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/me ... opid=30068

Grx!

Arno

Link: www.rosehybridizers.org/forum/message.php?topid=30068

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30072Post Robert Neil Rippetoe
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

This looks like it might be an important break through. I can already think of many ways to use it.

Congratulations. Let's hope for future fertility.

Will be fun now to see what becomes of your myrifica hybrid.

These things take time!

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30075Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Hi Robert, thanks for your enthusiasm about it!

The fertility is not very good so far, but the plants will mature and it depends on what will be presented as pollen, I think.

I could cross it with the above mentioned Rosa rugosa f. alba x Rosa beggeriana pollen, a pure cinnamomea crossing with more fertility: I did F1 crossings with them (syblings-crossings to go for the F2-Splittings) and got at least 150 seeds or even some more.

Grx!

Arno

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30084Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Hmn. In this case the direction

(Rosa rugosa f. alba x Rosa beggeriana) x (Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese)

would work better.

And the light yellow trait is transerable per pollen.

I'll have to try it that direction, no doubt!

Good is that the both Rosa rugosa f. alba crosses will flower nearly at the same time, with the GC cross flowering a bit (few days) earlier.

Tha fits good.

Grx!

Arno

Robert Neil Rippetoe

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30085Post Robert Neil Rippetoe
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

That does sound good. Then put Chersonese back on it?

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30086Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

To test the theory of the two different traits of yellows I could cross Golden Chersonese x Rosa rugosa f. alba.

The flowers should be of a deeper yellow than that here if it sets hips, what should not be that easy ... .

Golden Chersonese as a plant for backcrosses as pollen parent would throw out the remontancy again and would not bring in deeper yellow if the theory of the two different traits of yellows (with different ways of inheritance) is right. So one hast to handle this with care. :-)

But - don't forget the deep yellow ancestor of Golden Chersonese, Rosa ecae.

I did lots of crossings with it as a mother plant this year. Really lots. And 4 hips did survive. The only ones I treated with a cooling / heating method of the hips during flower formation and after pollination (I jused this for my Rosa stellata mirifica crossings too since 2007 - and it more than doubled the amount of seed setting in odd crossings of plants that are of distant relationships).

Grx!

Arno

Jinks

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30087Post Jinks
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

I was really interested to see this thread as I have two seedlings from a Rugosa alba/Golden Chersonese cross I made in 2008 that haven't flowered yet. My seedlings are a year behind yours so with any luck they'll flower next year. Looking at the HMF photos your seedling appears to have larger leaves than my two, I'll have to try and get some shots of my seedlings for comparison when the rain breaks.

With Golden Chersonese's hybrid parentage I'd think there would be some variation in the degree of yellow in the seedlings, depending on whether the yellow comes from Rosa ecae or the lighter Canary Bird. It'll be interesting to see what degree of yellow is in your other seedlings and my two.

I'm really looking forward to seeing your other seedlings flower, please keep us posted on this one.

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30088Post TreasureTrove
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Hi Jinks!

Puh, thats really hard stuff because one year apart in flowering is very close (nearly nothing) for such a project and little challenge. Yes we should closely compare our outcomes in the future and its a real interesting if we got differences in our hybrids.

Of course there will be differences, with Golden Chersonese as an already complex hybrid out of at least three different cultivars.

One thing to the "yellow" theme (and according to your suggestions about it):

I don't believe that the two suggestet traits of deep and light yellows will mix in a crossing direction, where Golden Chersonese is only used as pollen parent, not as the seed parent.

If my thesis is right we should get a range only in the spectrum of light yellows and light yellow blends.

The deep yellows like in Rosa ecae should be inherited only maternaly (via the chromoplasts in the cell plasma of the female egg-cell).

Grx!

Arno

Jinks

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30090Post Jinks
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

An interesting theory, but I hope that's not the case.

If it should turn out that the deep yellow of acae is maternally inherited we aren't likely to obtain deep yellow, repeat flowering rugosa hybrids with these crosses. The chances of R. ecae X R. rugosa hybrids producing seed are slim.

Just out of curiosity, what's the background to your theory?

Jadae (zone 8b)

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30094Post Jadae (zone 8b)
Mon Aug 23, 2010 1:00 am

Hey Arno,

You did what I have wanted to do for years! Those are the exact parents I wanted to try but I could never get a hold of Golden Chersonese. Congratualtions. Thats really awesome. The possibility exists that you can cross it to something like Topaz Jewel (which I dont like. I think the plant is awful) or you could do something like:

[Golden Chersonese x ]

Personally, there are endless possibilities for your hybrid. The list of ideas could go on and on. My original idea was to mix Rosa rugosa alba with both Golden Chersonese and Sunshine so that I could combine the two sets later. However, I have quickly discovered the pain of working with the diploid yellow lines stemming from china/teas. I did find Rosa rugosa alba good to work with though. I think its one of the best rugosas there is. I would love to find the plena version.

Even though the color isnt true yellow, I think it is a wonderful color. Rugosas can easily benefit from any color that isnt magenta, white, rose or purple. Pinks with some modern tone in them would be widely popular in landscape design, in my opinion. Anything hardy with COLOR is always welcome as an option for areas colder that USDA zone 6.

Adam Eckstein

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30100Post Adam Eckstein
Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:00 am

Treasure Trove that is a very lovely flower. And an interesting cross.

On yellows from what I read their is two types of yellow. The lighter buttermilk color yellow coming from the R. chinese line and the darker R. foetida line. These two yellows when mix seem to get diluted by the first. Plus it seems that their is also plenty of additive genes to keep into account. Some of these additive genes seems to add to the richness of the color, others seem to affect the aging and some seem to affect the color of yellow under sunlight making it blush, there are probably more additive genes I do not know about. I do not know where the other yellow species count in when it comes to yellow. Hell they could be different genes all together? I do know the R. foetida yellow gene from research paper shows co-dominance. So the gene from this species above also clearly shows co-dominance just as in the case of R. foetida. Co-dominance is when a gene shows through but does not override the other genes. While I do believe that there are things inherited through the female line I do not believe flower color is one of them. What seems to be inherited in most plants through female line is certain cell organelles. It is interesting in African Violets certain flower traits all arising from mutation are inherited through the female line. So maybe you do have something here.

Well anyway good luck. It seems like you have a very interesting starting point to do something awesome. By the way the foliage in the picture looks very good even if it is not disease resistant. I love this type of foliage

Max. E

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30102Post Max. E
Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:00 am

Oh that is a gorgeous color. I love apricot. Jadae is right, any rugosa-type shrub that isn't pink/magenta or 'Topaz Jewel' which I too hear is quite a weak thing, is most needed I think in the market.

You should be very proud of what you've done so far!

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30105Post TreasureTrove
Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:00 am

Hi Jadae!

Thanks! - Laughed about what you wrote on Topaz Jewel. ;-)

Your thoughts on the rugosas and benefit by different colourings is what I think, too. Rugosas in yellow / apricot or brown colours would be away from the main stream rugosas which the eye knows well - perhaps too much of it.

Your idea with sunshine (i believe you meant the Noack rose from the nineties) sounds plausible.

On the other hand you never now then for the descendants, where your yellow colour is from ... .

E.g. here in this hybrid, its quite sure from Canary bird.

That can be an advantage, to know something about the source of the traits - even some descendants further.

_______

Hi Adam! (And also an answer to Jink on the above question of yellow colour traits.)

Yes there seem to be technically different ways to inherite yellow colours.

If the molecules (which all of them are carotinoide derivates) that are responsible for the colouring are produced by chromoplasts (bacteria-like organells with own DNA) in the cell plasma, than that kind of trait - and its whole spectrum of blends and variations - will be inherited only maternally!

If the molecules are part of the vacuole, the controling biochemistry for their production seems to be inherited via classical mendelian ways and the caryon.

I might be wrong, but thats in parts what I think (and there are some variants that could also be possible, e.g. some interferring effects etc. - but only time, exploring and also further readings of articles will tell, whats right in the end - if ever.)

__________

Hi Max!

Thank you for your kind comment! Some day I will perhaps introduce roses to the market. But its not the main goal for me to earn money.

The passion for the challenge is perhaps even the better vehicle to get through the long time periods from the wild rose seeds to until the flowers of the hybrids then open.

No professional sciencentist can compete with the true love of an amateur, in the long run.

And there are only few people who live both parts, the professional way and do have the passion.

I am no professional breeder either, but with a bit of knowledge and the love for the roses, I might get some interesting outcomes one day. ;-)

Greetings to you all,

Arno

TreasureTrove

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30106Post TreasureTrove
Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:00 am

Here some lines that might fit, from Stefan George in translation by Ernst Morwitz:

You as the morning, light and tender,

You flower sprung from Crown and Spear,

You flawless as a flame and slender,

You secret as a spring and clear.

Jinks

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30113Post Jinks
Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:00 am

Got a couple of shots of my seedlings for comparison.

The first shot is the strongest of the two.[img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa63 ... CF0023.jpg[/img]

Jinks

Re: Rosa rugosa f. alba x Golden Chersonese

Post: # 30114Post Jinks
Tue Aug 24, 2010 1:00 am

The second seedling isn't looking quite so good [img]http://i201.photobucket.com/albums/aa63 ... CF0022.jpg[/img]

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