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Bellecom x OP

Posted: Tue Apr 09, 2019 6:09 pm
by jbergeson
Interesting seeds popping up.

The parent is a rugosa, either Rugosa #3 or Belle Poitevine, x Commander Gillette. I call it BELLECOM. It has really poor blossom quality, but reblooms on a fairly hardy plant. Low thorn.

I'm just psyched to have OP seedlings from a reblooming cross of a rugosa and Commander Gillette. Assuming that it was a triploid, then maybe there is a chance of these seedlings being fertile tetraploids. I'm really curious to see what characteristics and variation they show in terms of foliage, prickles, and fertility.

So far no germinations from POITECOM, which is a much nicer plant than BELLECOM and nearly sterile but sets about one hip each year.

Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Wed Apr 10, 2019 8:32 am
by Rob Byrnes
Nice cross Joe. Hopefully you'll post some pics for us. Wouldn't your F1 be a diploid? I plan on using Commander Gillette a lot this season with diploids and fertile triploids.

Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Fri Apr 12, 2019 4:24 pm
by jbergeson
Hi Rob,

I've always assumed that Commander Gillette is a tetraploid. I don't know where HMF gets diploid. Has anybody counted it?

As Kim has clearly spelled out in HMF comments and other places, the roses called Commander Gillette, Basye's Legacy, and Basye's Thornless are all the same rose and who knows which of the three is the one. However, if we look at Commander Gillette's supposed lineage you've got R. carolina x Hugh Dickson, which are both tetraploids I'd imagine.

Unless David Zlesak weighs in otherwise I'd assume that Commander Gillette is a tetraploid.


Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Sun Apr 14, 2019 1:10 pm
by Rob Byrnes

I would be great if it is tetraploid and if so, I'll be rethinking my breeding plans with it. Thank you!

Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:41 am
by philip_la
Thank you, Joe, for pointing that discrepancy out to me. I was taking it on faith that the rose out there was diploid...

Knowing that Legacy allegedly came from "the probable amphidiploid", I've always assumed the rose that is in commerce as "legacy" -- being the same rose as Comm. Gill., and presumably being deemed a diploid-- must in fact *lack* the amphidiploid genes and be the rose "Commander Gillette".

But it had not even occurred to me that Commander Gillette should be anything other than diploid...

Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:00 am
by jbergeson
If you look at the References tab in HMF, one source says diploid and another says tetraploid. The one that says diploid also says R. wichurana in describing me I don't see much if any wichurana in Commander Gillette.

Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:24 pm
by Karl K ... llette.htm
Basye (1985)

65-626 = (((R. carolina x Hugh Dickson) x OP) x OP)

"My record book shows that in 1961 I made a somatic chromosome count of the mother of 65-625 and found it to be 28. Apparently I never got around to making the count for 65-626. But over the last 20 years, its wide compatibility with garden roses, both as male and female parent, leaves little doubt that it, too, is a tetraploid."

77-361 = Probable amphidiploid x 65-626

"Recently I grew 36 selfed seedlings of this rose. None had bristles! 29 were thornless with smooth midribs; three were thornless with rough midribs; three had a few thorns and smooth midribs; and one had a thorns and a rough midrib. Also, five of the seedlings showed some recurrence, possessed also by the mother, 77-361. This may be a throwback to the rugosa ancestor, or even to Hugh Dickson."

"If 65-626 should, in younger hands, be privileged to play some role in the thornless garden roses of the future, then perhaps it should a name. I have chosen Commander Gillette, for the navigator on the light cruiser, USS Marblehead, on which we both served during World War II."

Re: Bellecom x OP

Posted: Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:32 pm
by jbergeson
I wonder if any clues (to ploidy or true identity) could come from the percentage of recurrent seedlings that result from crosses with Commander Gillette.

I had 18 early-germinating seedlings from Highwire Flyer x Commander, and three of them are blooming.