Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

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jbergeson
Posts: 1412
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 pm

Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

Post: # 71720Post jbergeson
Fri Jun 19, 2020 2:42 pm

Recorded this morning:

https://youtu.be/WovzGS_yoh4

Don
Posts: 1873
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 7:00 pm

Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

Post: # 71724Post Don
Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:56 pm

Very interesting work, Joe. The several cases of assumed identity remind me of the stories I have heard about Percy Wright 'guestimating' the parentage of his hybrids from their phenotypes and nearest neighbors.

Regarding the suspect Tuscany cross, it does look doubtful that it has Persian Yellow in it but I'd do a few deliberate selfings to check since you have the room and, well, what a hoot it would be if true. BTW, I once toured the Elizabeth Park 'Heritage' Garden, a small side lot filled with OBG's and unknowns, with Lily Shohan who we had asked to help identify some of those unknowns. A we passed over a known rose, Tuscany Superb, Lily corrected us because it was only Tuscany, no Superb. Apparently the Superb version is mega-double and ours was only really, really double.

Looking over my notes on Tuscany I found this one from Paul Barden that is interesting.

"As much as I like 'Tuscany Superb', you will struggle to get anything very dark in color from it; the second you mate it with anything modern (to get remontancy genes started) you almost always end up with medium to deep pinks, some of them really dirty colors. You will also end up with a percentage of seedlings that suffer from badly formed/deformed flowers."

http://rosehybridizers.org/forum/messag ... 2732866340
What doesn't kill them makes them stronger.

rikuhelin1
Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

Post: # 71725Post rikuhelin1
Sat Jun 20, 2020 2:31 pm

Well done and interesting pursuit of hardy garden worthy roses. Keep it going.

l grow examples of Metis (phonetically spelled as “may-tee” and is the way l pronounce it) but find significant die back ... keep it because the buds are unusually large and deep red making it attractive as it blooms. Nitida like foliage is a big plus. Another target for the list. May have mentioned before Nitida species made it through another winter (5) but still betting only going to 6-12”. Probably why Metis has issues for me but still comes back 3-4 ft. per season. How thick are the canes on your crosses?

Did end up crossing the unknown yellow with Suzanne, and with unknown single white “spino or altia (sp)” that blooms a weak yellow. Roses in sunny south garden. Bloom size of 3 to 4 inches of the white “spino” reminds me of golden wings but no fantastic filaments etc...

jbergeson
Posts: 1412
Joined: Thu Dec 15, 2011 11:54 pm

Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

Post: # 71726Post jbergeson
Sat Jun 20, 2020 6:41 pm

I pretty much have missed my window to pollinate the taller, hardier, apparent Metis this year, unfortunately. A combination of being busy and burnt out and not having enough reblooming pollen available.

Riku, your Metis sounds like the first one I had, which also died back last winter. My seedlings of it are tiny yet. R. nitida itself doesn't seem to die back much if at all here.

I have a couple of nice Modern x R. nitida seedlings blooming this year. One is with Miracle on the Hudson and the other with Canadian Shield. Also several R. nitida x my seedling 1113, which have boring single pink blooms as expected. Several R. nitida x Can Can seedlings either have no blooms or somewhat small, stunted blooms but very nice foliage and are clearly hybrids. The modern/nitida seedlings whose pollen I've looked at under a microscope have had some very nice pollen grains, giving hope that the nitida pathway will be easier than the rugosa pathway. I have a R. nitida x Beauty of Leafland that is clearly a hybrid but too young to bloom yet. Overall I'm excited to move forward incorporating R. nitida into modern rebloomers.

BTW, R. nitida x Tuscany Superb seemed to produce weak seedlings that have not bloomed (and are not really showing any sign of TS). Whereas the aformentioned modern/nitida crosses are showing great hybrid vigor in general.

Don, Tuscany Superb itself was an utter dog for me here, dying nearly to the ground each year and developing performance-art levels of leaf ugliness. I have a TS x PJPORCELAIN (Prairie Joy x Porcelain Rose) that is blooming for the first time and is nice and shrubby. Gallica's seem to combine well with moderns.

Paul G. Olsen
Posts: 31
Joined: Sun Apr 12, 2015 3:34 pm

Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

Post: # 71778Post Paul G. Olsen
Fri Jul 03, 2020 11:33 am

    Don wrote:
    Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:56 pm
    Very interesting work, Joe. The several cases of assumed identity remind me of the stories I have heard about Percy Wright 'guestimating' the parentage of his hybrids from their phenotypes and nearest neighbors.

    Regarding the suspect Tuscany cross, it does look doubtful that it has Persian Yellow in it but I'd do a few deliberate selfings to check since you have the room and, well, what a hoot it would be if true. BTW, I once toured the Elizabeth Park 'Heritage' Garden, a small side lot filled with OBG's and unknowns, with Lily Shohan who we had asked to help identify some of those unknowns. A we passed over a known rose, Tuscany Superb, Lily corrected us because it was only Tuscany, no Superb. Apparently the Superb version is mega-double and ours was only really, really double.

    Looking over my notes on Tuscany I found this one from Paul Barden that is interesting.

    "As much as I like 'Tuscany Superb', you will struggle to get anything very dark in color from it; the second you mate it with anything modern (to get remontancy genes started) you almost always end up with medium to deep pinks, some of them really dirty colors. You will also end up with a percentage of seedlings that suffer from badly formed/deformed flowers."

    http://rosehybridizers.org/forum/messag ... 2732866340
    My only seedling of Tuscany Superb' x 'Henry Kelsey' has very double, dark red flowers with very attractive foliage. The shrub has a sprawling habit. It grows in central Saskatchewan (Zone 2) and therefore winter kills severely each year, not producing flowers unless well protected. I've now switched to using 'John Davis' instead of 'Henry Kelsey', and there is no reason why I won't continue to have good results breeding 'Tuscany Superb' with appropriate staminate parents, which I think I'm doing.

    pacificjade
    Posts: 748
    Joined: Sat Dec 17, 2011 12:15 am

    Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

    Post: # 71870Post pacificjade
    Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:09 pm

    [quote=jbergeson post_id=71720 time=1592592134 user_id=1191]
    Recorded this morning:

    https://youtu.be/WovzGS_yoh4
    [/quote]

    I left you comments on the video.

    rikuhelin1
    Posts: 224
    Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

    Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

    Post: # 71880Post rikuhelin1
    Thu Jul 16, 2020 2:44 pm

    In jest sort of, it took 5 years (own root), and many die downs and bunny attacks (labelled R. nitida). It bloomed for the first time ... sort of counts. Going to cross with my super-hardy Agatha (doesn't set hips), if not already too late ... may not return for 5 more. 12 inches high.
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    rikuhelin1
    Posts: 224
    Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 7:56 pm

    Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

    Post: # 71881Post rikuhelin1
    Thu Jul 16, 2020 3:27 pm

    ... x prairie peace instead

    Karl K
    Posts: 1344
    Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

    Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

    Post: # 71939Post Karl K
    Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:58 pm

    Don wrote:
    Fri Jun 19, 2020 11:56 pm
    Looking over my notes on Tuscany I found this one from Paul Barden that is interesting.

    "As much as I like 'Tuscany Superb', you will struggle to get anything very dark in color from it; the second you mate it with anything modern (to get remontancy genes started) you almost always end up with medium to deep pinks, some of them really dirty colors. You will also end up with a percentage of seedlings that suffer from badly formed/deformed flowers."

    http://rosehybridizers.org/forum/messag ... 2732866340
    It seems that 'Tuscany Superb' relies on a co-pigment to shift the color towards the purple/violet. Similarly, the co-pigmented Baby Faurax crossed with Belinda gave the vivid red Marjorie Fair. That's a bit of luck, but I'm guessing the breeder was aiming for a BF-shade.

    To keep the color of a Tuscan-type color, or most of it, a cross with another co-pigment type would be in order. 'Baby Faurax' and 'Sweet Chariot' come to mind. 'Erinnerung an Brod' should give an even better color, but no rebloom ... unless the latent Damask Perpetual ancestry of 'Génie de Châteaubriand' pops up. 'Louis XIV' is another possibility. The color is wildly unstable, from season to season. There's a warning in there. The color of a once-bloomer may not work out in different weather.
    http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... isXIV.html

    http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/KKing/RosePigme ... ments.html

    'Charles de Mills'?
    http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pict ... mills.html

    Karl K
    Posts: 1344
    Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2012 4:49 pm

    Re: Video tour including Metis and Bella Nitida

    Post: # 71944Post Karl K
    Thu Jul 23, 2020 4:47 pm

    'Reine des Violettes' seems to be another of the co-pigment types. Of the very few offspring listed in HMF, the only one that was of the "blue" persuasion was 'Mme E. Rocque' [Veilchenblau x Reine des Violettes]. Two co-pigmented parents produced a co-pigmented child (once-blooming).

    LeGrice's 'News' [Lilac Charm x Superb Tuscan] might be helpful, especially if it were crossed with a different 'Superb Tuscan' cross, such as 'James Mason'. Depth of color might be recovered, though maybe not the co-pigmentation. 'Lilac Charm', being of the 'Grey Pearl' lineage, may not contribute to the purple color, though it could give a lilac underlay.

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